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01-09-2019, 06:27 PM   #736
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
In which case, maybe we can both admit that these are our opinions rather than facts. I'll go first... I have no data, these are just my opinions
I have no data also. But other members of this thread keep posting that the Pentax market share as a whole is 2%. I'm not about to call them misinformed. But as this would be all Pentax product. It could easily be assumed the K1 or K1 II hasnt sold in big numbers.

Has it been announced that Pixel shift can be used hand held yet...? I thought that to be a translation issue. By the way I love the K1. I own two. Just want to see a fair and balanced discussion.. Though I didnt upgrade either of them..


Last edited by stub; 01-09-2019 at 06:40 PM.
01-09-2019, 07:08 PM   #737
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QuoteOriginally posted by stub Quote
I have no data also. But other members of this thread keep posting that the Pentax market share as a whole is 2%. I'm not about to call them misinformed. But as this would be all Pentax product. It could easily be assumed the K1 or K1 II hasnt sold in big numbers.

Has it been announced that Pixel shift can be used hand held yet...? I thought that to be a translation issue. By the way I love the K1. I own two. Just want to see a fair and balanced discussion.. Though I didnt upgrade either of them..
The real market share for all camera products by RICOH/Pentax is about 5%. The good news is that RICOH's imaging division showed a profit last year so as long as they keep it profitable, there is incentive tp support it....Obviously, it's not a large segment of an international company, but any good news for Pentax is welcomed.
01-09-2019, 07:12 PM   #738
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QuoteOriginally posted by stub Quote
I have no data also. But other members of this thread keep posting that the Pentax market share as a whole is 2%. (...)
Less than that actually.

The sales of the Smart Vision division, which includes but is not limited to Pentax (it also includes Ricoh GR, WG, Theta and rugged professional cameras), during calendar year 2017 were ¥20.2bn.

During the same period and according to CIPA data the shipments of ILCs amounted to ¥578.3bn and those of interchangeable lenses to ¥414.3bn. Total is ¥992.6bn. These figures are shipments and are therefore lower than the corresponding sales. They don't include accessories (e.g. flashes, batteries, chargers, grips) nor do they include services (e.g. repairs), yet the corresponding sales are included in the sales of Smart Vision.

20.2 ÷ 992.6 = 2.04% but Pentax is only a portion of the numerator and the denominator should be a higher number to ensure consistency.
01-09-2019, 07:20 PM   #739
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QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
The real market share for all camera products by RICOH/Pentax is about 5%. (...)
Definitely no, see above. Smart Vision sales amounted to ¥20.2bn in 2017. Camera shipments (including both cameras with built-in lens and ILCs) amounted to ¥792.8bn. Lens shipments amounted to ¥414.3bn. Total is ¥1,207.1bn. Global sales of 360° cameras such as Theta cameras would have to be added on top of that to determine the relevant market.

20.2 ÷ 1,207.1 = 1.67% but the denominator should be a higher number.

01-09-2019, 07:25 PM   #740
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Definitely no, see above. Smart Vision sales amounted to ¥20.2bn in 2017. Camera shipments (including both cameras with built-in lens and ILCs) amounted to ¥792.8bn. Lens shipments amounted to ¥414.3bn. Total is ¥1,207.1bn. Global sales of 360° cameras such as Theta cameras would have to be added on top of that to determine the relevant market.

20.2 ÷ 1,207.1 = 1.67% but the denominator should be a higher number.
Are you quoting only Japanese based shipments? RICOH has other regional centers too....you have to look at the whole imaging department, because Pentax also has opticals, microscopes, medical/professional divisions too. All are included in the division itself...Statistics can be misleading if you use only raw numbers....
01-09-2019, 07:31 PM   #741
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I've just watch a video that show Nikon Z6 AF missing a static target (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHY1SprPVBY: look from 12:00 onwards) , multiple times,
In this video, the Z6 doesn‘t miss focus.
It is in wide area auto AF and half of the image is in focus, as the highlighted focus points tell you. The Z6 can‘t know what shall be the subject. It even would have recognized a person, but another camera? One finger touch would have focus that other camera. I tell from experience, playing with a Z6.

Having said this, Z6/7 on-sensor AF isn‘t on par with D850 phase AF. In low light, a K1 would probably beat it too.

P.S.
I think this thread is a bit over the top. Chris and Jordan played their year end drunken special and nominated the K-1II the 2nd most disappointing camera launch of 2018. Something most could sympathize with. They made the mistake to drop „launch“ in their delivered speech. But everybody got it anyway from the context.

Last edited by falconeye; 01-09-2019 at 07:41 PM.
01-09-2019, 07:32 PM - 3 Likes   #742
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QuoteOriginally posted by stub Quote
In my mind they didnt say anything wrong.. Just the Pentaxians being over possesive,,
To me it makes a big difference whether someone calls something the "worst camera" or the "most disappointing upgrade" of the year 2018.

Imagine Nikon would have released a Nikon D850 II with some minor improvements regarding burst rate performance, battery life, slightly wider AF area, etc.
Would DPReview have called the Nikon D850 II the "worst camera of 2018"?

Surely, even if the updates themselves are disappointing, the overall product -- here the Nikon D850 II or the Pentax K-1 II -- is still an excellent camera which should be never be mentioned with the phrase "worst camera" in the same sentence.
01-09-2019, 07:36 PM - 1 Like   #743
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QuoteOriginally posted by stub Quote
They did discontinue the K1. It just hung around so long because they couldn't sell the pre manufactured stock so quickly.
I reckon the "they couldn't sell the pre manufactured stock so quickly" part is 100% speculation on your part.

If so, please preface such statements accordingly so that they cannot be mistaken for the reporting of facts.
If not, please share with us where you get such information from.

QuoteOriginally posted by stub Quote
Has it been announced that Pixel shift can be used hand held yet...?
The proper "PixelShift" approach is not amenable to hand-holding.

The K-1 II features an approach that has been misnamed "Dynamic Pixel Shift" which is much more related to "superresolution" than to "Pixel Shift".

01-09-2019, 07:40 PM   #744
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
To me it makes a big difference whether someone calls something the "worst camera" or the "most disappointing upgrade" of the year 2018.

Imagine Nikon would have released a Nikon D850 II with some minor improvements regarding burst rate performance, battery life, slightly wider AF area, etc.
Would DPReview have called the Nikon D850 II the "worst camera of 2018"?

Surely, even if the updates themselves are disappointing, the overall product -- here the Nikon D850 II or the Pentax K-1 II -- is still an excellent camera which should be never be mentioned with the phrase "worst camera" in the same sentence.

That is really the essence of this thread and why I think DP review is a shill for Amazon to sell units--objectivity left DP a decade ago when hey were bought out to be a marketing arm. Period. (Ever notice the links go right to Amazon to 'price' units?).
01-09-2019, 07:54 PM - 1 Like   #745
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Imagine Nikon would have released a Nikon D850 II with some minor improvements regarding burst rate performance, battery life, slightly wider AF area, etc.
Would DPReview have called the Nikon D850 II the "worst camera of 2018"?
Nikon did something similiar, with the D610. Didn‘t become most disappointing launch indeed.

To me it means that Pentax does still matter to Chris and Jordan and that they hoped better from Pentax. Pentax is important enough to be on the list after all ...

And yes, there is a difference between worst camera and most disappointing launch. Without further context. But further context was provided. And this is no official award, not to be takes as serious as is done here. It is sort of a joke and it would be better for the image of Pentaxians to take it as that.
01-09-2019, 08:24 PM   #746
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Interesting that the DPR page for the subject video presentation now gives the following statement:

"* Please note that after more shooting, we have established that the Nikon Z 50mm F1.8 is not, in fact, one of the worst lenses of 2018. This was a mistake caused by miscommunication inside the DPR/DPRTV team. We'd like to apologize for any confusion."

at: DPReview TV: Best and worst of 2018: Digital Photography Review

It seems that this retraction was posted only recently.
01-09-2019, 08:32 PM - 1 Like   #747
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
Interesting that the DPR page for the subject video presentation now gives the following statement:

"* Please note that after more shooting, we have established that the Nikon Z 50mm F1.8 is not, in fact, one of the worst lenses of 2018. This was a mistake caused by miscommunication inside the DPR/DPRTV team. We'd like to apologize for any confusion."

at: DPReview TV: Best and worst of 2018: Digital Photography Review

It seems that this retraction was posted only recently.

Because Nikon is their best seller and one would never want to hurt sales, now, would we? DPR is scum...and predictable
01-09-2019, 08:55 PM - 1 Like   #748
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QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
The real market share for all camera products by RICOH/Pentax is about 5%. The good news is that RICOH's imaging division showed a profit last year so as long as they keep it profitable, there is incentive tp support it....Obviously, it's not a large segment of an international company, but any good news for Pentax is welcomed.
Merv:
Look at it this way; if camera sales fall to phones, and everyone like Canikon has to downsize to remain viable, Pentax is already there
01-09-2019, 09:25 PM - 1 Like   #749
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Hi falconeye, what a delight to see you posting at pentaxforums. I missed you and will be missing you again, once you disappear again.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
To me it means that Pentax does still matter to Chris and Jordan and that they hoped better from Pentax.
If that had been their objective, they could have done a much better job.

First of all, I hoped better from Pentax as well. I agree with Chris that the K-1 is the better buy and I wouldn't recommend an "upgrade" to the K-1 II either. I agree with pointing out that the K-1 II wasn't an impressive upgrade and that introducing mandatory denoising of RAW(!) data is indeed "not the way to go".

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Pentax is important enough to be on the list after all ...
Well, it should be their journalistic duty to include Pentax whenever relevant.
Unfortunately, DPReview has a habit of leaving Pentax off the list, even if it would have been important for accuracy to include them.

DPReview has a habit of mentioning Pentax when they can make a negative remark. I won't 100% exclude the notion of "confirmation bias" on my part, but I can provide you with tons of evidence where DPReview has not done justice to Pentax and where they let get other brands away with similar or worse downsides.

BTW, I'm not viewing the video as "Chris and Jordan's private inofficial opinions" because it aired on the DPReview channel and a lot of DPReview staff were present and did not make corrective statements. This has to be viewed as being sanctioned by DPReview and hiding behind a "that's their personal view" pretext is pretty lame, if there is not at least a disclaimer that DPReview does not endorse the statements made.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
And yes, there is a difference between worst camera and most disappointing launch. Without further context. But further context was provided.
With one subordinate clause (seven words), he acknowledged that the K-1 "was" an "innovative fantastic product with beautiful image quality".

The rest of his statements are all (potentially just sloppily) worded to transport incorrect messages:
"This camera isn't bringing anything to the table."
critically omits "new" as in "isn't bringing anything new to the table".
"The fact that you can take your old camera and upgrade it to this [K-1 II]
really speaks at what they do at this company."
turns a positive into a negative.

Even for minor upgrades, it isn't common that a manufacturer allows one to spend an upgrade price to acquire the perks of a new model instead of having to sell one's old model and pay the full new price for the new model.

The fact that the PCB of the K-1 has to be replaced with a new one to turn it into a K-1 II means that it is inappropriate to use the existence of the upgrade option as evidence of how little difference there is between the cameras. Is the K-1 II a disappointing update? In my view, yes, but still the reasoning by Chris is wrong and could be viewed as populist in nature.

Chris also, probably unintentionally, denigrates the Pentax brand and Pentaxians by attributing the "zealousness" of Pentaxians to "loyalty":
"You are loyal to your company, I think that's commendable"
I'd say that many Pentaxians are not sticking to the brand due to some blind or ill-conceived "loyaltiy" but because the Pentax products work for them (and better than other products would).

Chris essentially implies that Pentaxians continue to buy Pentax products and vocally disagree with unfair treatment of the brand, because they have bought Pentax in the past and want to culture their "loyalty".

Maybe Chris hasn't reflected about the implications of identifying Pentaxians with "loyality" but I think there can be no denying that this tacitly sends the message that if only technical merit would count, they'd choose a Sony or Fuji as well (I guess Nikon also makes their "darlings" list).

Note that DPReview, in their "2019 camera and lens manufacturers' New Year's resolutions", use the phrase "...we respect the way that many of them react to anything short of uncritically gushing praise for their favorite camera maker...". This would be "tongue in cheek" in private communication but as part of an official article, it's an insult. Yes, one could be super relaxed about it, but there is no denying that, overall, their narrative portrays Pentax as a brand that is not to be taken seriously and Pentaxians as irate sheep. If that's not what they want, they should change the way they write about Pentax/Pentaxians.

Chris finishes with
"So unfortunately, this is the worst camera."
which is simply a wrong statement. No self-respecting journalist should say something like that. I respect Chris a lot. I'm grateful that he overall appreciated the K-1 a lot in his review. I'm not so impressed by how he handled the K-1 II "award" and that he called "every entry-level DSLR the "worst camera of 2018". I think that's an outrageous statement to make. We've come to expect the mirrorless love from DPReview but I thought Chris was better than that.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
And this is no official award, not to be takes as serious as is done here. It is sort of a joke and it would be better for the image of Pentaxians to take it as that.
I know that you want to help Pentaxians to not ruin their image (if that's possible ).

However, I don't accept that the "award"/video passes as a joke because it has the blessing of DPReview and Chris has to realise that his choice and his wording will be used by fanboys all over the internet to throw mud at Pentax.

Note that DPReview don't seem to regard the whole thing as "joke" either, if they make retractions about "unofficial" verdicts made during the video.

To clarify: I don't care in the least that people do not approve of my camera brand choice. I'm only in favour of actively counteracting the unfair treatment of Pentax by DPReview because I'm concerned about the brand. Pentax sales are low as they are. There is no need to present Pentax in a worse than adequate light.

In your benevolence towards Chris/Dpreview, I believe you also have to acknowledge that "Othering" is a common phenomenon and that viewing numbers/website hits are DPReview's success metric. A controversial statement is good for DPReview but bad for Pentax. I don't think Pentaxians should stay quiet in order to avoid this situation (and I know fully well that you didn't suggest the latter).

Last edited by Class A; 01-09-2019 at 09:47 PM.
01-09-2019, 10:05 PM - 1 Like   #750
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Hi falconeye, what a delight to see you posting at pentaxforums. I missed you and will be missing you again, once you disappear again.


If that had been their objective, they could have done a much better job.

First of all, I hoped better from Pentax as well. I agree with Chris that the K-1 is the better buy and I wouldn't recommend an "upgrade" to the K-1 II either. I agree with pointing out that the K-1 II wasn't an impressive upgrade and that introducing mandatory denoising of RAW(!) data is indeed "not the way to go".


Well, it should be their journalistic duty to include Pentax whenever relevant.
Unfortunately, DPReview has a habit of leaving Pentax off the list, even if it would have been important for accuracy to include them.

DPReview has a habit of mentioning Pentax when they can make a negative remark. I won't 100% exclude the notion of "confirmation bias" on my part, but I can provide you with tons of evidence where DPReview has not done justice to Pentax and where they let get other brands away with similar or worse downsides.

BTW, I'm not viewing the video as "Chris and Jordan's private inofficial opinions" because it aired on the DPReview channel and a lot of DPReview staff were present and did not make corrective statements. This has to be viewed as being sanctioned by DPReview and hiding behind a "that's their personal view" pretext is pretty lame, if there is not at least a disclaimer that DPReview does not endorse the statements made.


With one subordinate clause (seven words), he acknowledged that the K-1 "was" an "innovative fantastic product with beautiful image quality".

The rest of his statements are all (potentially just sloppily) worded to transport incorrect messages:
"This camera isn't bringing anything to the table."
critically omits "new" as in "isn't bringing anything new to the table".
"The fact that you can take your old camera and upgrade it to this [K-1 II]
really speaks at what they do at this company."
turns a positive into a negative.

Even for minor upgrades, it isn't common that a manufacturer allows one to spend an upgrade price to acquire the perks of a new model instead of having to sell one's old model and pay the full new price for the new model.

The fact that the PCB of the K-1 has to be replaced with a new one to turn it into a K-1 II means that it is inappropriate to use the existence of the upgrade option as evidence of how little difference there is between the cameras. Is the K-1 II a disappointing update? In my view, yes, but still the reasoning by Chris is wrong and could be viewed as populist in nature.

Chris also, probably unintentionally, denigrates the Pentax brand and Pentaxians by attributing the "zealousness" of Pentaxians to "loyalty":
"You are loyal to your company, I think that's commendable"
I'd say that many Pentaxians are not sticking to the brand due to some blind or ill-conceived "loyaltiy" but because the Pentax products work for them (and better than other products would).

Chris essentially implies that Pentaxians continue to buy Pentax products and vocally disagree with unfair treatment of the brand, because they have bought Pentax in the past and want to culture their "loyalty".

Maybe Chris hasn't reflected about the implications of identifying Pentaxians with "loyality" but I think there can be no denying that this tacitly sends the message that if only technical merit would count, they'd choose a Sony or Fuji as well (I guess Nikon also makes their "darlings" list).

Note that DPReview, in their "2019 camera and lens manufacturers' New Year's resolutions", use the phrase "...we respect the way that many of them react to anything short of uncritically gushing praise for their favorite camera maker...". This would be "tongue in cheek" in private communication but as part of an official article, it's an insult. Yes, one could be super relaxed about it, but there is no denying that, overall, their narrative portrays Pentax as a brand that is not to be taken seriously and Pentaxians as irate sheep. If that's not what they want, they should change the way they write about Pentax/Pentaxians.

Chris finishes with
"So unfortunately, this is the worst camera."
which is simply a wrong statement. No self-respecting journalist should say something like that. I respect Chris a lot. I'm grateful that he overall appreciated the K-1 a lot in his review. I'm not so impressed by how he handled the K-1 II "award" and that he called "every entry-level DSLR the "worst camera of 2018". I think that's an outrageous statement to make. We've come to expect the mirrorless love from DPReview but I thought Chris was better than that.


I know that you want to help Pentaxians to not ruin their image (if that's possible ).

However, I don't accept that the "award"/video passes as a joke because it has the blessing of DPReview and Chris has to realise that his choice and his wording will be used by fanboys all over the internet to throw mud at Pentax.

Note that DPReview don't seem to regard the whole thing as "joke" either, if they make retractions about "unofficial" verdicts made during the video.

To clarify: I don't care in the least that people do not approve of my camera brand choice. I'm only in favour of actively counteracting the unfair treatment of Pentax by DPReview because I'm concerned about the brand. Pentax sales are low as they are. There is no need to present Pentax in a worse than adequate light.

In your benevolence towards Chris/Dpreview, I believe you also have to acknowledge that "Othering" is a common phenomenon and that viewing numbers/website hits are DPReview's success metric. A controversial statement is good for DPReview but bad for Pentax. I don't think Pentaxians should stay quiet in order to avoid this situation (and I know fully well that you didn't suggest the latter).
I don't mind being called loyal to my brand, I think that's a good thing. But if that conclusion comes with a narrative that it's blind loyalty, then that is where I would take exception. I'm loyal because I like Pentax design, I always have. When I worked in photo retail and I would sell Pentax, I would always say the reason I like it is because IMHO their ergonomics are the best and very user friendly. If the customer didn't default to Canikon and gave me a chance to explain, I would use the camera to validate my opinion.
When I see a review video, I expect to see at least some impartiality, but I am missing that somewhat with Chris and Jordan. They are sometimes almost smug about their reviews of Pentax, and they always warn the viewer about how their comments will rile Pentax users. I consider that patronizing, and unprofessional.
If you're going to do a review, we expect you have your own views on the product, just don't rub our nose in it. Respect the individual, don't rank on the maverick.

Say folks, if any of you Pentax shooters are pros or advanced amatuers and are on Facebook, I invite you to join the Pentax Photojournalists/Professional Pentaxians page.
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