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07-11-2019, 09:47 AM   #931
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Geez...I'm a lucky guy. My Leica Rangefinder is a 1951, albeit a beat up, still functioning well...old camera.
Leica stopped being relevant when SLRs got good. They survived on their cachet value making them desirable to rich doctors, not because they were especially useful pieces of photographic equipment.

07-11-2019, 10:49 AM   #932
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Leica stopped being relevant when SLRs got good. They survived on their cachet value making them desirable to rich doctors, not because they were especially useful pieces of photographic equipment.
You're right. I used to work in the publishing industry in the late '60's, 1970. I recall going to press conferences where there were photographers and reporters from the two dailies...and smaller papers/mags... in my burg.

Back then, this was before the intro of the Canon F1 ('71 I think)...press photographers used a variety of cameras. There was one guy who had been around for many a year and I recall he used a Rollei TLR and he usually also had a Leica Rangefinder on his person . Other press guys used Nikon F, there was a Pentax Spotmatic or two and one fellow used his Mamiya Press (think it was a 23 or something). Then there was me, the junior guy with my basic Pentax S1a and cheap little Sekonic light meter.

By 1970 I was gone from the publishing business...attending U...and as the '70's moved on, more press photographers were using either Nikon F and Canon F1 systems, for the most part. With a Leica Rangefinder you didn't have much in the way of lens options. You were ok in the wide angle, normal lens and moderate (very) telephoto areas...but that wasn't enough versatility compared to what either the Nikon or Canon systems could provide. There was also the expense. Leica RF stuff then and now is expensive . My one Leica RF, screw mount (couldn't afford an M3) camera was 30 + years old when I bought it in the '80's, along with my 1940's Leitz Elmar collapsible 50 mm, F 3.5 lens.

It does take good pix, has been very reliable and durable...but is limited.
07-11-2019, 11:10 AM - 1 Like   #933
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Leica stopped being relevant when SLRs got good. They survived on their cachet value making them desirable to rich doctors, not because they were especially useful pieces of photographic equipment.
QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Leica stopped being relevant when SLRs got good.
I love hearing people bash Leica when they know so little about the brand...Press Photographers are not always 'serious' professionals...They need quick accurate photos and SLRs became a logical press standard. Wheatfield, ususally I agree with your comments and you are entitled to your opinion, but this time you are so off base it's ludicrous

In addition to my Substantial Pentax kit (see below), I also have 4 Leica bodies, an M-Mount Rangefinder, A TL mirrorless that is so advanced the entire LCD is the operating system (it's like an iPhone and very hi tech), A Digital CL that blows away my K-3ii at the same 24mp standard (has 49 focus points, low light speed, etc.) and a Leica D-LUx typ 109 4/3rds....The TL/CL have awesome (expensive sure) zoom lenses (I have a 11-23mm, a 18-56 and a 55-135mm) as well as primes I use on the M. Leica is amazing in that they partnered with Lumix/Panasonic while keeping the German build quality and ease of use.

So the question some of you may ask is why do you have and use Pentax as well as Leica? Simple: Pentax cameras are weather proof/resistant, the Leicas are not. The Build quality of all of my Pentaxes rivals Leica, I enjoy using the DSLR format and particularly, like the way Pentax renders its color and contrast. Plus, I feel more comfortable using Pentax in certain locations for safety, reduced theft possibilities, etc. Additionally, the focal lengths on Pentax and their super zoom lenses often are versatile to me in the field. However, I do believe that the Leica lenses are sharper than most of the Pentax lenses I use; not necessarily better but just softer renderings.

One more point, I am not a "rich doctor"....I am a (reasonably successful) attorney who's Grandfather taught him how to take pictures and develop them with Leicas and Rolleis and has had a serious fun hobby for over 50 years. The fact that I presently have an 85mm prime on my K-1 in manual focus on "P" mode should tell you where I'm at: Leica, like Pentax is a niche brand that has loyal customers/users. Leave it at that and let's move on.
07-11-2019, 11:17 AM   #934
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Sorry Merv, but a data point of one isn’t all that convincing, but I do like it when people start by making declarative statements regarding what other people know when they have no idea regarding the person’s background.
Rich doctors, rich lawyers, from the perspective of this thread there isn’t anything to differentiate the two. The key word is “rich”, as in rich enough to satisfy our gear fetishes.

07-11-2019, 11:22 AM   #935
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QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
I love hearing people bash Leica when they know so little about the brand..
And I hate people constantly praising them for no apparent reason.
Are you going to show us these images that blow away your K-3, maybe some comparison shots in a poll to find out if everyone else sees what you see?

There are times I have to do blind tests to see if I can trust my eyes, and it turns out I can't.
So how can I trust yours?

I tried looking up the Leica CL on Imaging Resources but they have neither test images or sample photos.

A Leica CL search on flickr turns up some of the worst photo I've ever seen, but, the photographers fault, not the cameras.
Search: Lieca CL | Flickr

I'm just looking for reasons why a non-Lieca convert would buy any of this.
We've been through this before I believe.
The absence of data supported responses leads me to lean towards confirmation bias. I don't own the camera, but not having made the investment in bodies, I also have no reason to hold an unconfirmable or confirmation bias opinion.

For most of us who will never own a Leica, we need some convincing.
If your opinion is worth more than ours because we know so little about the brand, it should be easy for you to convince us. Especially since I'm constantly surprised by my K-3 images, because whenever scene has promise I reach for the K-1. Now I could claim the K-1 is a lot better than the K-3, blind testing shows I'd be wrong. But the K-3 images still blow me away on occasion.

So here I sit, you say the Leica leaves the K-3 in the dust. I can't even prove the K-1 leaves the K-3 in the dust. I suspect we are using extremely different evaluation criteria. Yours seems to include using the Lieca like I use my K-1. Ya, for the most part my best images are K-1 images, because I take the K-1 to the most promising shoots. How is your evaluation different? I take my K-3 out for hikes. So let's look at the aforementioned K-1. Since the K-1 costs less, you have to ask, is a Leica CL better than a K-1? You're still saving money buying the Pentax.

To do so it would have to be the highest res APS_c sensor ever produced. And to match the DR and colour depth of a K-1 with a 24 MP APS_c sensor... whatever.

I can't find a single unbiased review site that say Lieca is better than anything else, forget about a K-3. Maybe you have one.
And the last time you sent me down this rabbit hole, I actually pretty much disproved your argument that there was Lieca glass equivalent to the DF*50 1.4. The only actual published comparisons suggested, even if they didn't prove otherwise.
I'm hoping you'll poop or get off the pot here. You can't just keep throwing out these lines of claimed superiority based on nothing but your own bias and preference.

We understand your personal preference for Lieca. What we don't know is if in blind test, anyone people would share your preference. From what you've posted we aha eno way of evaluating that.

Last edited by normhead; 07-11-2019 at 12:24 PM.
07-11-2019, 12:24 PM - 3 Likes   #936
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Leica makes good gear. It's too expensive for my taste, but they have good image quality and tend to control size of their lenses.

I guess I don't really see the point in bashing other's gear even if I can't afford it myself.
07-11-2019, 01:30 PM   #937
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Hi Merv,

Few things I need to review. First of all, you have misquoted me.

QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
Originally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Leica stopped being relevant when SLRs got good.
If you read my post, you won't find this quote which you have attributed to me. It wasn't me.


QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
I love hearing people bash Leica when they know so little about the brand
You don't know me, so I will provide some background regarding my experience with Leica equipment. I have a Leica Rangefinder. albeit an old one, and have used it quite a bit since I bought it in 1982 and have used it now regularly for a bit over 36 years. Back in the 1980's I also used a Leica M4 and 28/50 and 90mm Leica lenses a fair amount. I've been both a Leica owner and used Leica equipment a fair amount. In my view I didn't 'bash' Leica, nor have I ever bashed Leica. As an owner and user of this fine camera equipment, if anything I hold Leica equipment in great regard and I base this regard on my long eperience with the brand. Like any camera equipment...Leica...Pentax...Canon...etc...have their strengths and weaknesses.

I have a number of different camera brands and camera types and I have selected the equipment I have...due to my particular photographic needs .

Les

---------- Post added 07-11-19 at 03:33 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Leica makes good gear. It's too expensive for my taste, but they have good image quality and tend to control size of their lenses.

I guess I don't really see the point in bashing other's gear even if I can't afford it myself.
Rondec,

I don't know if you were referring to me. If you were please note my post, which came after yours.

Les
07-11-2019, 02:23 PM - 1 Like   #938
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
Hi Merv,

Few things I need to review. First of all, you have misquoted me.



If you read my post, you won't find this quote which you have attributed to me. It wasn't me.




You don't know me, so I will provide some background regarding my experience with Leica equipment. I have a Leica Rangefinder. albeit an old one, and have used it quite a bit since I bought it in 1982 and have used it now regularly for a bit over 36 years. Back in the 1980's I also used a Leica M4 and 28/50 and 90mm Leica lenses a fair amount. I've been both a Leica owner and used Leica equipment a fair amount. In my view I didn't 'bash' Leica, nor have I ever bashed Leica. As an owner and user of this fine camera equipment, if anything I hold Leica equipment in great regard and I base this regard on my long eperience with the brand. Like any camera equipment...Leica...Pentax...Canon...etc...have their strengths and weaknesses.

I have a number of different camera brands and camera types and I have selected the equipment I have...due to my particular photographic needs .

Les

---------- Post added 07-11-19 at 03:33 PM ----------



Rondec,

I don't know if you were referring to me. If you were please note my post, which came after yours.

Les
I'm not referring to anyone in particular. I'm pretty stuck on Pentax, personally, but if I was suddenly gifted some Leica gear I'd probably enjoy it too.

I just don't want this thread to get overheated as some do...

07-11-2019, 02:28 PM   #939
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm not referring to anyone in particular. I'm pretty stuck on Pentax, personally, but if I was suddenly gifted some Leica gear I'd probably enjoy it too.

I just don't want this thread to get overheated as some do...
I agree with you. I don't want this thread to get overheated either.
07-11-2019, 07:08 PM   #940
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I guess I don't really see the point in bashing other's gear even if I can't afford it myself.
Too bad users of other brands (and quite a few posters on this forum) don't share your magnanimous nature.

Maybe we're all just a little skeptical of some brands, because we have no idea what they are really like and no one can confirm the claims made for Leica by it's ardent supporters. But let's make deal, quit being 10 years ole with the "my camera is better than yours." thing from one brand leading to predictable responses. But, don't start the "my brand is better than yours" (ie don't attack) and you won't have to defend your brand. If poke a wasps nest with a stick... don't complain about getting stung.
07-11-2019, 07:25 PM   #941
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Too bad users of other brands (and quite a few posters on this forum) don't share your magnanimous nature.

Maybe we're all just a little skeptical of some brands, because we have no idea what they are really like and no one can confirm the claims made for Leica by it's ardent supporters. But let's make deal, quit being 10 years ole with the "my camera is better than yours." thing from one brand leading to predictable responses. But, don't start the "my brand is better than yours" (ie don't attack) and you won't have to defend your brand. If poke a wasps nest with a stick... don't complain about getting stung.
Normhead:

You were the one who attacked me.....I am extremely passionate about my Pentax gear (I recently wrote the History of Pentax piece for this Forum which I enjoy immensely). As you can see, I am heavily invested in Leica gear and because I consider this Forum to be open-minded, I have posted some of my Leica pics here (I am open about my EXIF data and post JPEG at 85%). If you are truly interested in a comparo, I will be happy to accept your personal info in a PM print out the photos and let you decide for yourself.....as an example of my love of Pentax (as if 5 recent bodies owned isn't proof enough), I took my K-1 out in the deluge conditions here in the Northeast and had no fear it would be damaged.....

I accept your passion about Pentax and I join in it, but I am fortunate enough that I can afford the luxury of having different cameras for different purposes, so my opinion is based on specific jobs and purposes.

---------- Post added 07-11-19 at 07:34 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
have a number of different camera brands and camera types and I have selected the equipment I have...due to my particular photographic needs .
And that was my point as well....Some people here (norm admitted this) have never used Leica or any other brand and become Pentax fixated. I am not here to bash or convert Pentax users, I am suggesting that I need more than Pentax to fulfill my photographic needs and have extensive experience with Leica (and Canon and Nikon, but I sold those kits except for my Canon FTBn which I cherish because it was my first SLR).

Finally, healthy discourse on these types of subjects is positive and appreciate all those who commented on my responses,,,,,I also apologize to anyone who accidently was misquoted when attaching to quick replies.

Cheers.

---------- Post added 07-11-19 at 07:42 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Sorry Merv, but a data point of one isn’t all that convincing, but I do like it when people start by making declarative statements regarding what other people know when they have no idea regarding the person’s background.
Rich doctors, rich lawyers, from the perspective of this thread there isn’t anything to differentiate the two. The key word is “rich”, as in rich enough to satisfy our gear fetishes.
And Wheatfield: what is your experience with Leicas? Rangefinders, APS-c models, film M-Mounts, R-Mounts. What? You have none....so let it go. And how I spend my money or how much I have is really not the point of the discussions....is it? This is a Forum dedicated to Pentax, but is clearly open to more discussions. Personally, I am fine with my Pentaxes. They are not perfect, but I can work through the issues because I was given a great background into Photography and I will continue to post-my photographs and enjoy the discourse here. I simply feel that one should speak from a position of knowledge, not conjectures.


Have a good evening and keep shooting....If you can't shoot the camera you want, then love the one you have....
07-11-2019, 08:28 PM   #942
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QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
And Wheatfield: what is your experience with Leicas? Rangefinders, APS-c models, film M-Mounts, R-Mounts. What? You have none....so let it go. And how I spend my money or how much I have is really not the point of the discussions....is it? This is a Forum dedicated to Pentax, but is clearly open to more discussions. Personally, I am fine with my Pentaxes. They are not perfect, but I can work through the issues because I was given a great background into Photography and I will continue to post-my photographs and enjoy the discourse here. I simply feel that one should speak from a position of knowledge, not conjectures.


Have a good evening and keep shooting....If you can't shoot the camera you want, then love the one you have....
Admittedly, I don't have a lot of experience with Leica. I've used the M3, M4, M6 fairly extensively, and both the R3 and R4, the R4 more in passing though, from the early 1970s to into the late 1980s. I do have experience with them, and I stand by my assertion that Leica became irrelevant about the same time SLRs got TTL metering.
They went from being a users camera to a bling toy for well heeled amateurs.

Anyway, I'm not sure why you are getting overheated in this thread, but as I have reached my posting limit in this thread.....
I give the last word to you....
07-11-2019, 08:51 PM - 1 Like   #943
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Thanks all for your discussions here. It's what the forum is all about. But let's stick to gear and avoid personal attacks/commentary. It makes for a more cordial exchange of ideas. Thanks again for your cooperation.
07-11-2019, 10:45 PM - 2 Likes   #944
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Leica? The only thing I know about Leica is, no matter how small (small, very small, very very small...) they write the price on the tiny label, it still looks gigantic.
I usually look at the Leica price, it's enough read to send me back to read some Pentax specs for a stress relief.
07-12-2019, 04:07 AM   #945
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Leica? The only thing I know about Leica is, no matter how small (small, very small, very very small...) they write the price on the tiny label, it still looks gigantic.
I usually look at the Leica price, it's enough read to send me back to read some Pentax specs for a stress relief.
I don't like their price points either. I shoot with them because I learned on them and I enjoy their ease use and their unique renderings...manual focus, aperture control on the lens dial....I put my k-1 in manual mode too and use the focus peaking like a rangefinder, when I see the red flash in the viewfinder, I fine focus and snap....excellent. I just wish the K-1 was a bit lighter so I could tote it everywhere--that of course prompted the need for the KP. Then I missed my K50 so I bought a new K-5ii in 2019 because I loved the 16mp renditions on that sensor. I had sold my K-3ii and then bought a used one from a Forum Member here with only 6600 clicks on it. Rounded out the Pentax stable when a new (w/out box) K-S2 was available from Roberts Camera w/18-50mm wr collapsable lens (worth about $300 new by itself) for $355. It was like getting the K-S2 for 60 bucks!!!

They all have their proper uses and are all quality products--like children, they also have their own personalities and quirks....but I enjoy them all
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