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01-01-2019, 12:12 PM - 1 Like   #556
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
With regards to the "price" I wonder why nobody ever wants to evaluate the total sum of it all as is represented in the final image.
While certainly the abysmally low standards of dptabloid make any data they present at least somewhat questionable you may have a look at the following image comparison about noise and loss of detail at high ISO:
Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
It is a well known fact that dptabloid screwed up the lens to chart alignment on some shots so let's stay away from the poor right hand side of the image and pick a part of the left where fine detail can be judged well. The etching is good for that as it also isnt at the extreme edges where lens performance might skew the results.

The link above compares the noise/detail performance of the K-1 II (1800 EUR) with its accelerator active (presumably loosing detail) versus three other cameras which all have a higher pixelcount (so by internet forum logic have to resolve more detail and be better). D850: 3450 EUR; Z7: 3700 EUR; A7R3; 3300 EUR.
When I do look at the skirt of the woman on the left with its vertical structures I do see massive loss of detail of the Sony and Z7 versus the K-1 II and even the D850 is not on par with it - even with the comparison switched to "full", so it takes full advantage of the extra pixel count and should yield more detail if its performance was on par.
Switch it all to ISO 25600 and it becomes even more apparent.

Why is none of the fanboys making a fuss about the major loss of detail on the Sony and Nikons, which all perform worse than the K-1 II?
Not even mentioning that the K-1 II is the only camera that is sent in there with a 20 year old film era lens from 1999.

In the very end I personally do not care about factors, but about the image end result after maybe 20 different influencing factors. If the final image yields more detail plus less noise, I do consider this to be something to like, not dislike. But maybe I am weird.
Exactly. I based my opinion on this topic exactly on such a comparison. It is obvious that the theoretical, even if measurable by fourier transformation analysis, "loss of detail" is something that would be almost impossible to observe in everyday photography and is masked by multiple parameters by a high factor. The focusing, resolving power of the lens and by a huge amount by the demosaicing algorithm of the raw convertor. The last does produce horrible results for the Sony, that should have an resolving advantage due to the sensors resolution, which is in some parts completely lost.

This seems to be also the biggest source of disagreement between the reviewers and the actual users. The reviewers jumped to conclusions after they thought they nailed the "detail loss" by using Bill Claffs analysis and supporting it with images. When it became obvious that the images were technically insufficient and could not be used to support such a claim they started to get defensive and still insisted that this sensor would be a "star eater on steroids", which also turned out to simply not being true. That it would be practically impossible to see "data loss" is supported by the fact of the initial assessment of the KP image quality and the praise for it "boxing in a higher class"...

Now there is only the fact, that some are still following the idea of "pureness" of the raw, and they see this endangered by the K1IIs implementation. But this is a matter of principle and probably not possible to come to any common conclusions on that.

Trying to sum it up:

If your photos would suffer or become only slightly less usable because of the accelerator unit you should be alarmed and have changed multiple other parameters before you could blame this chip.


Last edited by MMVIII; 01-01-2019 at 12:21 PM.
01-01-2019, 12:15 PM - 1 Like   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Dan, that is my point - there's too much drama on something that we can't even agree it is an issue.

I would love if Pentax would be as strong as the #1 (in market share) brand. It isn't. And a bashing treatment by the most popular photo gear site in the western world matters.

Anyway, tomorrow I'll have my first serious photo shooting with the upgraded K-1. Attitude? Pose? I hope the models would be cooperative, or at least be there.
Well, at least you won't have to worry about your models being freaked out from seeing their skin flaws since the K-1II skin flaw smoother will take care of that!
01-01-2019, 12:27 PM   #558
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Well, at least you won't have to worry about your models being freaked out from seeing their skin flaws since the K-1II skin flaw smoother will take care of that!
I think they'd be more interested in nuts
01-01-2019, 02:07 PM - 1 Like   #559
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I think they'd be more interested in nuts
LOL.....So these are not the two legged model types?? Better be careful the K-1II might turn their fur into decayed rabbit fur!!

01-01-2019, 02:28 PM   #560
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Pentax is being bullied because it's the smaller company. No big brand or big brand endorser will allow a smaller brand to win. Bashing is the only solution to put down the smaller brand despite the evidence at hand. They will point to smaller brands weakness and justify whatever reason they have to put it down.
01-01-2019, 02:38 PM   #561
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
LOL.....So these are not the two legged model types?? Better be careful the K-1II might turn their fur into decayed rabbit fur!!
They're the "tree rat" variety and pretty much alive
And invisible, if I'm unlucky.
01-01-2019, 02:52 PM   #562
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They're the "tree rat" variety and pretty much alive
And invisible, if I'm unlucky.
I am jaded. I thought you meant the Instagram trend. Nsfw.

01-01-2019, 03:35 PM - 1 Like   #563
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
there's too much drama on something that we can't even agree it is an issue.

I would love if Pentax would be as strong as the #1 (in market share) brand. It isn't. And a bashing treatment by the most popular photo gear site in the western world matters.
Definitely too much drama, but it is more of an issue to some than others. To those that it does matter, then their discussions get more technical and even heated. So far it's been rather cordial. Thanks to all involved. Shoot with the tool that does the job and derives pleasure, and if not interested, leave the technical details to those who care about the finest aspects of the camera's output.
01-01-2019, 03:47 PM - 1 Like   #564
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Surely, we have seen such degrees of detail and cleanliness before. All it takes is to post-process a RAW image.
True, however the posted image at ISO 8000 was processed with NR to zero, and the colour noise in it at 100% was minimal, especially over the lit subject matter where it counts the most.
That is why even after all the 'inaccurate' comparisons, I do believe the K-1 II is getting more bad press than it deserves.
01-01-2019, 04:44 PM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Personally, I think the hair in the images doesn't look natural unless there is some kind of blur.
Children shot at 1/60 .... yes, I would expect some kind of blur, but this is one of those subjective judgments.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Others may say that the unadulterated noise of an ISO 8000 image doesn't look "natural" either.
And others might be perfectly satisfied with it - that is another totally subjective judgment.

If we started off with the same photo, but taken with a K-1, then had three different experts develop the 'raw' file, we would probably have three different treatments, and a lively debate here over which one was best, as demonstrated in a demo recently by @normhead
01-01-2019, 06:02 PM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I guess I don't understand the point of buying a K-1 II and then disabling the accelerator. You are paying more money for a camera that has a particular feature that you are disabling to make it equivalent to another camera without that feature.
The premise is that the K-1 has been discontinued. The K-1 II replaced it. It is not an alternative offer.

As a result, if you want to buy a Pentax full-frame camera, you are forced to also buy and use the accelerator processing, lock, stock and barrel.

Maybe, right now, one would still be able to get a K-1 but what if you want the improved AF-C performance of the K-1 II?
What if you want to use the "Dynamic Pixel Shift" feature of the K-1 II?
If you want those perks, you have no choice but accept the non-optional "accelerator" processing as well.
Why would that have to be the case?
Why not give people the choice, so that they have access to all the K-1 II perks and can use them or not use them whenever they see fit?

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Anyway, I suppose we'll just agree to disagree.
That approach is a good solution if an impasse has been reached.

However, in our case, I believe our disagreement is based on a misunderstanding.
You don't have a problem with the K-1 II's mandatory "accelerator" processing for two reasons:
  1. You feel it is only a positive.
  2. You suggest anyone not liking it, should just get a K-1.
Regarding 2., see above; it's unfortunately not that easy.

Regarding 1., that's fine for you personally, but surely you are willing to grant others a different evaluation of the pros and cons of the "accelerator" processing, right? That's why you are using argument 2. as well, correct?

So, overall, I don't see why we should agree to disagree. I think we should just agree that only having the K-1 II as a choice is not ideal for everybody.

Last edited by Class A; 01-01-2019 at 07:29 PM.
01-01-2019, 06:14 PM   #567
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
You are assuming the 'accelerator' has an off/on signal line.
No, I'm not assuming that.

I know that it can behave in a neutral manner.

Your overall use of terminology, such as "signal line", and "pin-out", leads me to believe you are thinking of the "accelerator" unit very much in terms of an analogue device. However, it is a digital processor. It's function/control is better thought of by digital data being provided as input, as opposed to "lines" being set to ground level, etc.

There is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't be possible to have the "accelerator" unit not manipulate the image data going in.

Just consider the worst case in which one would simply instruct the "accelerator" unit to process the data on the basis of the data coming from an ISO 100 exposure. So even if the data results from an ISO 6400 exposure, say, just process it as if it originated from an ISO 100 exposure.

We know that the "accelerator" unit doesn't perform any denoising at ISO 100. So there's your solution, even in the completely implausible case that there wouldn't be a better way to avoid the "accelerator" processing. No need for an "off/on signal line".
01-01-2019, 06:14 PM   #568
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The premise is that the K-1 has been discontinued. The K-1 II replaced it. It is not an alternative offer.

As a result, if you want to buy a Pentax full-frame camera, you are forced to also buy and use the accelerator processing, lock, stock and barrel.
It will be interesting to see what other FF cameras Pentax releases this year; enough time has passed for them to gauge reaction to the mk ii.
01-01-2019, 06:34 PM   #569
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I know that it can behave in a neutral manner.
We know that it behaves in a neutral manner in a certain ISO range - but we don't know whether that is a result of control signals sent from the processor or as a result of carefully optimized internal programming.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Your overall use of terminology, such as "signal line", and "pin-out", leads me to believe you are thinking of the "accelerator" unit very much in terms of an analogue device. However, it is a digital processor. It's behaviour is influenced by digital data being provided as input, as opposed to "lines" being set to ground level, etc.
No, I am thinking of it as a digital device. It receives binary control signals from the outside; for example, the "control bus" from the processor typically has a RD* signal ... which is 'high' most of the time, but is set 'low' to tell memory it is reading from the address on the "address bus". I used to teach this material, and I still know it very well.

added: I forget the exact values now, but 'low' is something like 0.0-0.8 volts while high is something like 4.0-5.0 volts in 'TTL' digital logic; 'CMOS' may use slightly different values.

Last edited by reh321; 01-01-2019 at 06:53 PM.
01-01-2019, 06:36 PM   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It will be interesting to see what other FF cameras Pentax releases this year; enough time has passed for them to gauge reaction to the mk ii.
I don't think they will release another FF this year, Reh. And possibly not an APS-C camera either, given the Photokina interview where it was only said development of a K-3 successor had 'started'.

They will put out the GRIII, though. The selected photographer Tanaka is known to be shooting/giving feedback on a it. He's Japanese, of course.

Last edited by clackers; 01-01-2019 at 06:54 PM.
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