[biz-engineer]

I think it's playing out like this:1. Most people use cellphones for photography.2. ILC manufacturers go luxury/high-end to cater to the "real" photographers who still want a camera, trying to push $1k buyers to $2k, $3k, $4k+3. Companies drive more and more people to cell phones because there are fewer and fewer people who can afford a high-end camera4. Eventually many ILC companies go out of business because there are only so many Leica customersThe camera industry is like if the auto industry decided that they can't compete with (insert something else here... scooters? Trains? It doesn't matter), so they're all going to move to the BMW, Land Rover, Aston Martin model. Only so many people can afford a BMW*, much less an Aston. That's kind of what's happening with domestic US sedans/coupes - few people want what they see as a rental car sedan from companies that made crap in the 1980s and 1990s, so they buy German and Japanese cars. US manufacturers give up and just make pickups and crossovers/SUVs. Tastes will eventually change, SUVs and monster trucks will become My Parents' Stodgy Vehicle and once again US manufacturers will be on the precipice because that's all they make.* Oohhh... I just came up with a solution to the camera industry's woes. Get banks to approve eight or nine year loans for people with shaky credit to buy cameras, even if they depreciate to 50% of their value in a couple years. That's been a godsend for auto companies.

Added to this is, given the price of cameras, I've been shocked by how camera shops don't care about service. I had the experience of buying a car at a car dealer, the salesperson was dressed nicely, asked many questions to understand customer priorities and concerns, and offered the customer to try the car. For the last 5 years, every time I went to camera shop for looking at cameras, the shop staff looked too busy to even notice I was there, I felt sorry to ask questions because it was as if my questions were bothering them, and they anyway didn't ask any question and didn't provide any recommendation for a choice of product. I guess people come and buy what they've been sold by DPReview, no effort for the shop. I'm puzzled. Do camera businesses really think they can take multiples thousand from customer pocket without putting the slight effort into good service?

[ThorSanchez]

Added to this is, given the price of cameras, I've been shocked by how camera shops don't care about service. I had the experience of buying a car at a car dealer, the salesperson was dressed nicely, asked many questions to understand customer priorities and concerns, and offered the customer to try the car. For the last 5 years, every time I went to camera shop for looking at cameras, the shop staff looked too busy to even notice I was there, I felt sorry to ask questions because it was as if my questions were bothering them, and they anyway didn't ask any question and didn't provide any recommendation for a choice of product. I guess people come and buy what they've been sold by DPReview, no effort for the shop. I'm puzzled. Do camera businesses really think they can take multiples thousand from customer pocket without putting the slight effort into good service?

I don't know... I have no experience with camera shops. There's literally one store within a five hour drive of my house that sells Pentax. I've never talked to a salesperson about camera gear in my whole life.

My experience with car salesmen is highly dependent on the type of car I'm buying. When I was much younger I went with my Dad to buy a used car for my sister, and it was the whole stereotypical used car salesman run-around where we literally had to get up and leave before they'd honor the price they agreed to over the phone. Couldn't have been slimier. When I bought my Mini Cooper S it was very professional and straightforward, I knew exactly what I wanted and we both knew they didn't really negotiate, so everyone was happy and the service was great. When I bought my (used) Audi from a BMW dealer everything was very professional and it went well. In all cases, except perhaps the Mini, I knew more about the car than the salesman. Often a lot more. I'd guess cameras are similar - if it's a dedicated shop that sells higher-end cameras I'd expect a much higher level of knowledge and service than if you're trying to buy a Canon Rebel from Best Buy. But I don't know that's really the case.

Maybe they know that there are very limited options for most people who want the brick-and-mortar experience so they don't try as hard. Or they've become jaded because they get people coming in just to handle the camera they'll buy on Amazon for 15% less. If they tried harder they'd get that 15%.

[Dipsoid]

Added to this is, given the price of cameras, I've been shocked by how camera shops don't care about service. I had the experience of buying a car at a car dealer, the salesperson was dressed nicely, asked many questions to understand customer priorities and concerns, and offered the customer to try the car. For the last 5 years, every time I went to camera shop for looking at cameras, the shop staff looked too busy to even notice I was there, I felt sorry to ask questions because it was as if my questions were bothering them, and they anyway didn't ask any question and didn't provide any recommendation for a choice of product. I guess people come and buy what they've been sold by DPReview, no effort for the shop. I'm puzzled. Do camera businesses really think they can take multiples thousand from customer pocket without putting the slight effort into good service?

I wouldn't generalize. My local camera store has wonderful service. I've seen employees answer basic questions of people that were mind numbingly simple with incredible patience and class. Every time you walk in the store you're greeted by smiles and some of the employees remember my name. They dress in polo shirts and jeans, but I don't think you need to dress fancy to sell cameras. In fact, I think many of my generation perceive someone dressed up too much trying to sell you something as a somewhat of a huckster. In fact, dressing like a car salesman is considered an insult, because that's the stereotype of someone who is trying to separate you from your money wearing a fake smile and a suit.

On the other hand, I recently visited Austin and needed to buy film while I was there. I visited the forum's favorite company Precision Camera. The clerk was incredibly rude, not looking at me and grumbling his responses. When I asked about Kodak Gold and Ultramax he asked another employee to help him find the "amateur film" with a snarky voice. When that employee was confused he had to tell her he was looking for Kodak Gold. In the end they didn't have any, I had to settle for Fuji 400 and a roll of waaaaay overpriced ProH 400. I left missing my local store very much.

[Mistral75]

(...) If I consider ILC system cost, they've risen way about of the non-professional budget for electronics.

[reh321]

Tastes will eventually change, SUVs and monster trucks will become My Parents' Stodgy Vehicle and once again US manufacturers will be on the precipice because that's all they make.

I drive a Ford Fiesta which I am perfectly happy with. Our younger daughter drives of Dodge SUV, because ten years ago she slipped on black ice, hit a tree, and cracked a vertebrae, so she needs something larger to make her feel safe. Maybe your family is driven by style, but not all of us are.

[MMVIII]

Right. Nevertheless, better to compare to A7IIIR, Z7, D800/D810/D850, 5DSR (5DMKIV is out by far).. No, actually, the Pentax K-1 (II) is a fantastic tool for FF DSLR pictures. Of course, it's not good for video, AF has not to be compared to other brands, but image quality is exceptional... and exceptional according to the price. Thank you Pentax!
I am so happy with this camera.
Waiting for next generation (2 or 3 years time?), a new kind of (Hybrid?) HR-EVF camera with global shutter, a zero shutter lag, multi-frame stacking features and so on to make me switch. But for the moment, Z7 but especially Canon EOS R is not worth to spend so much money for this poor quality of image and an EVF less good than the last generation of Leica SL... It's just marketing, no more...
besides, I do not regret my updated K-1 to K-1 II...

Ah, sure. I did this comparison only because I saw the Z6 review and I kept the a 7III and changed the preselected D750 and EOS R, because they are so much worse. But I have to confess I lost the overview on the latest models from Canon... And maybe the Z6 really has to be seen a class lower if this are the peers to compare it to...
Anyhow, even when switching to Z7, a7IIIR and EOS5DSR there is almost no difference to the level od detail of the K-1II at ISO 800 RAW, for sure not as a disatvantage and applying Pixel shift for such a static object puts it at another level... after so many pages here it was for me again a reminder of the "non issue" so much has been debated about.

[reh321]

I don't know... I have no experience with camera shops. There's literally one store within a five hour drive of my house that sells Pentax. I've never talked to a salesperson about camera gear in my whole life.

My experience with car salesmen is highly dependent on the type of car I'm buying. When I was much younger I went with my Dad to buy a used car for my sister, and it was the whole stereotypical used car salesman run-around where we literally had to get up and leave before they'd honor the price they agreed to over the phone. Couldn't have been slimier. When I bought my Mini Cooper S it was very professional and straightforward, I knew exactly what I wanted and we both knew they didn't really negotiate, so everyone was happy and the service was great. When I bought my (used) Audi from a BMW dealer everything was very professional and it went well. In all cases, except perhaps the Mini, I knew more about the car than the salesman. Often a lot more. I'd guess cameras are similar - if it's a dedicated shop that sells higher-end cameras I'd expect a much higher level of knowledge and service than if you're trying to buy a Canon Rebel from Best Buy. But I don't know that's really the case.

Your experience with both camera stores and auto dealers is way too limited.

I went with our daughter when she purchased her Dodge SUV, used, at a local Ford dealer. The sales persons were very professional - not "slimy" at all - they do not negotiate, they just showed what they had and honestly presented it to her. The sales persons are on salary, not commission, and knew at least as much as the two of us put together. When I've had mechanical issues with my Ford Fiesta, their service people have given me a good explanation and provided options to keep it within my budget.

There is a camera store on the other end of town. They don't sell Pentax - I'd have to drive two hours south to find that - but all personnel at the camera store are knowledgeable and helpful.

[BrianR]

I wouldn't generalize. My local camera store has wonderful service. I've seen employees answer basic questions of people that were mind numbingly simple with incredible patience and class. Every time you walk in the store you're greeted by smiles and some of the employees remember my name.

I have a local independently owned camera store with similar service. They're pinched by online sales, big electronics retailers and so on, and they fight back with great friendly service. Unfortunately they hardly carry any Pentax equipment, but I try to buy other stuff from them when possible (bags, tripods, frames etc) and I use their printing services.

Conversely, I've had generally poor service at the Canadian chains (Henry's and Vistek), but it can be hit or miss depending on the employee you get, mostly miss in my experience.

[ThorSanchez]

I drive a Ford Fiesta which I am perfectly happy with. Our younger daughter drives of Dodge SUV, because ten years ago she slipped on black ice, hit a tree, and cracked a vertebrae, so she needs something larger to make her feel safe. Maybe your family is driven by style, but not all of us are.

Your daughter's choice it that - it's a choice. You can get cars other than SUVs that are very safe. I'm sure your Fiesta is a safe vehicle. Large, heavy vehicles may provide more mass to protect you, but they're also harder to manuever while avoiding trouble. My choice of driving a car is driven by requirements which include being safe, fun, affordable to me, and practical, along with being stylish (at least to me).

---------- Post added 01-15-19 at 10:48 AM ----------

Your experience with both camera stores and auto dealers is way too limited.

I will completely agree with the camera stores, but I think I have a reasonable sampling of car dealers. I will admit that my more recent experiences with dealers have been better than the ones in the past. When buying my wife's Jeep a few years ago the dealers were generally fine. It's been a while since I've had a dealer (Honda in Crofton, Maryland circa 2004) who took my keys and wouldn't give them back as a negotiating tactic.

[normhead]

Conversely, I've had generally poor service at the Canadian chains (Henry's and Vistek), but it can be hit or miss depending on the employee you get, mostly miss in my experience.

I hardly even bother going to the stores. Force fo habit from my youth when going to the stores was an experience. Walking down Young Street in my teens, stopping in at the camera stores was part of the Friday night experience. It took me a long time to break myself of the habit, these days it's a waste of time. I can still shop for tripods etc. but I've had store employees ask if they could handle my K-1. Now it's an experience for them when I come in, not for me.

[SSGGeezer]

When I went in to the Hunt's store in Portland Maine and said I shot Pentax, (At that time the K-50,) The salesman was super happy and excited to show me how wonderful the features of the K-1 were. He was a fan and I was happy to see it, as well as knowing I couldn't afford to buy it so I was safe to play with it. (I did give it back fairly quickly to battle the GAS it was bringing to the party though!) Actual service is the only way Brick and Mortar stores are going to compete and survive these days.

[ThorSanchez]

That chart indicates that the average price of an ILC is something like 50000 yen, or 460 dollars. The new, splashy stuff, the mirrorless from Sony, Nikon, Canon, they're all five times that cost. A K-1ii is almost $2k.

You can get a Canon Rebel T6 for $400. To make the math work out to $460 you'd have to sell 30 T6 equivalents for each $2500 body they sell.

[Mistral75]

That chart indicates that the average price of an ILC is something like 50000 yen, or 460 dollars. The new, splashy stuff, the mirrorless from Sony, Nikon, Canon, they're all five times that cost. A K-1ii is almost $2k.

You can get a Canon Rebel T6 for $400. To make the math work out to $460 you'd have to sell 30 T6 equivalents for each $2500 body they sell.

That's not the retail price, that's the shipment price (the price paid by local importers/distributors to the manufacturer).

[ThorSanchez]

That's not the retail price, that's the shipment price (the price paid by local importers/distributors to the manufacturer).

Oh, okay. That's less perplexing. Does anyone know a typical markup from shipment price to retail?

[ZombieArmy]

I've asked to provide conditions where high detail and high ISO are simultaneously mandatory and after 3 weeks I still haven't had any answer

Because when I shoot at 25,600 in my house in the dark I want to see every damn hair on my dog.