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10-07-2008, 06:24 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Closer in some ways, but it depends on your basis for comparison. At similar ISO from 100 and up, film grain is much more obvious and has more impact on enlargement than resolution. Generally you can enlarge a 6MP digital print as far as a 100 ISO negative print and what you lose in fine detail you gain in edge sharpness and lack of grain. 14.6MP is probably about as good as the best slide film with top end glass, but 6MP was at least as good as an average Kodak Gold 100 film on a consumer SLR with consumer lens.
Interesting Steve. Extrapolating from this, what do you think would be the digital equivalent of 6x7with Tmax 100 with a good lens (late 55mm f4.0)? I'll use Tri-x 400 more often, but Tmax 100 for landscapes where the ability to resolve details is of high importance.

Regards,
Boucicaut

10-07-2008, 07:11 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boucicaut Quote
Interesting Steve. Extrapolating from this, what do you think would be the digital equivalent of 6x7with Tmax 100 with a good lens (late 55mm f4.0)? I'll use Tri-x 400 more often, but Tmax 100 for landscapes where the ability to resolve details is of high importance.

Regards,
Boucicaut
As soon as they commercialize a b&W APS-C sensor DSLR I'll let you know
I have a hard time when people try to compare B&W to a technology clearly set up for color....
I might as well ask you to show me a colorized version of a B&W...
10-07-2008, 08:37 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
As soon as they commercialize a b&W APS-C sensor DSLR I'll let you know
I have a hard time when people try to compare B&W to a technology clearly set up for color....
I might as well ask you to show me a colorized version of a B&W...
Indeed a pity no one has the balls to bring such a DSLR. Somehow Canon/Nikon bringing one would not surprise me, it would be an expensive niche camera however.

I'd still like to get one
10-08-2008, 02:36 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Indeed, the only thing K-M means is:
  • Slightly faster mirror box (3.5fps)
  • faster AF (tweaked algorithms)

Still interesting to note but they need to process files faster as well as tweaking the mirror box, otherwise K30D will be stuck at 3fps.
Indeed he K-M could have the new faster mirror box throttled down for extended real world beta testing: it would be a very Pentax thing!

AF should be the old *istDS module tweaked a bit for speed.

10-08-2008, 06:41 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
According to my 1997 pentax dealer catalogue the long ago discontinued 80-200mm 2.8 FA weighs 1,507 grams or 55.7 ounces. My Canon eos 70-200mm 2.8 Image stabilized lens weighs 3.5 pounds or 56 ounces. Is this .03 ounce difference for these two similar full frame lenses that significant? I find it interesting the canon includes in lens Image Stabilization for .03 of 1 ounce more weight.
The Pentax DA* 50-135 f/2.8 is a more valid comparison due to the crop factor, and this weighs 27 ounces including the hood. Substantially lighter and most likely smaller (I don't know the Canon lens), and of course includes stabilisation (in the body).

I do know that I can print Super A3+ prints from my K20D and keep forgetting to sharpen in Photoshop they're so good. I don't think I need to carry any extra bulk or weight to get superb images.

Nick
10-08-2008, 08:16 AM   #126
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Yeah, if you used pentax metadata to back up this observation even it will say the 50-135mm 2.8 is instead a 75mm-202mm f2.8. Last year I was still shooting film via Pentax ZX-L and 6mp K Mount. Same lens on each platform. I disagree that aps-c lenses magically grow longer with "telephoto effect". I like the term "Isolated View" better. Thats actually my term based on what I've seen comparing my 400mm 5.6 SMC-A on both platforms. For me I still see things in the 24x36 format. And More so now since I added two full frame 5D dslrs to my bag. What pentaxians really need is a body like ZX-L to see these results for themselves. I'm likely one of the few who, when i still had a Pentax rep last fall, used all his SDM lenses on my Pentax ZX-L film body and I know first hand the poor edge qualities and worse: Vignetting the non full frame SDM lens line provide via full frame film.

So its perfectly fine by me if people everywhere think pentax aps-c lens is made for full frame too. Having made the film body and dslr comparisions myself answered my own concerns and this was one of the few reasons I choose to add eos full frame to my 2008 equiptment bag.

Since pentax has pretty much killed the full frame 24x36 dslr I'd say the "telephoto" effect myth will persist since hands on comparisions require one to buy a newer pentax film body to see what full frame really provides via SDM lenses. There is no additional reach via aps-c format, just a cropped down Isolated Image instead.

Me I'm right on the edge of wanting to recoup my 6 year investment in pentax system primarily due to pentax trashcanning the 24x36 format. The one thing stopping me is the ever decreasing price on K20D out of Canada. Even B&H in NY is at $999 plus they're throwing in a $100 gift card plus free usa shipping. So $899 in NY versus the $720-$760 K20D I've seen K20D are selling for in Canada. If K20D makes it down to $600 or so new in the box I'd likley regret NOT getting what I really think may become Pentax' FlagShip Dslr as nothing better will get offered. Pentax has had two dramatic quarterly losses and now with markets the way they are alot of businesses are failing. It was tough on Pentax' bottom line before they got bought out for their medical division in april 2008 and then the credit markets seized. Things are still dropping, and seeing the K20D price declines in canada market I can imagine K20D will become known as Pentax dslr Flagship as nothing better gets issued from them.

For me I am quite unhappy Pentax choose to make a low end body versus the often rumored full frame k Mount. So many credible rumors on this forum turned out completely wrong. So either Pentax got told "No" by Hoya or no one on this forum no one really knows whats up Pentax Future Product launches and the rumor mongers are doing like I am, Just Guessing & then Wishing for Full Frame.

So bottom line (for me):

Isolated View provided by a lens like 50-135mm SDM is not the same complete view and added reach provided by 80-200mm 2.8 FA ,even though the K Mount dslr Metadata says it is. So comparing the weight of both isn't valid since they are not the same. One is aps-c and the other is full frame.

QuoteOriginally posted by NickC Quote
The Pentax DA* 50-135 f/2.8 is a more valid comparison due to the crop factor, and this weighs 27 ounces including the hood. Substantially lighter and most likely smaller (I don't know the Canon lens), and of course includes stabilisation (in the body).

I do know that I can print Super A3+ prints from my K20D and keep forgetting to sharpen in Photoshop they're so good. I don't think I need to carry any extra bulk or weight to get superb images.

Nick

Last edited by Samsungian; 10-08-2008 at 08:22 AM. Reason: change "to" to "Not"
10-08-2008, 05:00 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boucicaut Quote
Interesting Steve. Extrapolating from this, what do you think would be the digital equivalent of 6x7with Tmax 100 with a good lens (late 55mm f4.0)? I'll use Tri-x 400 more often, but Tmax 100 for landscapes where the ability to resolve details is of high importance.

Regards,
Boucicaut
Very hard to tell - Tmax has amazing dynamic range for a start. I dont really think you can compare B&W film to colour as its at least 2-3 stops more sensitive and more tolerant.

In colour terms I gather most 645 digital backs are already close to LF colour neg film, but you'd have to ask an expert.
10-08-2008, 05:44 PM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Very hard to tell - Tmax has amazing dynamic range for a start. I dont really think you can compare B&W film to colour as its at least 2-3 stops more sensitive and more tolerant.

In colour terms I gather most 645 digital backs are already close to LF colour neg film, but you'd have to ask an expert.
Clark's chart:

Clarkvision: Film versus Digital Summary




Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-08-2008 at 06:08 PM.
10-08-2008, 05:46 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
K100D, don't worry. Deejjjaaaa doesn't know anything, is just wild speculation.
Btw, our little K-m slightly improves the SAFOX speed and the fps; I think the "K30D" should be better
I know that people from Romania are very nice, but they tend to overexpect things from Pentax... should I remind you all those posting from RaduA before Photokina or you can search 'em yourself, what a prophet he was... as for K2000 improved AF - wait until production units will be tested w/ normal lenses and not DA-L's
10-09-2008, 01:13 AM   #130
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Well, I had a K-m in my hands for brief moments. My impression is that it's faster, at least in low light, than my K10D. Not by much, and certainly not enough to make you want to switch from K10D/K20D to a K-m, but the difference is there IMHO. I couldn't test accuracy, nor use several different lenses - I hope the Pentax 17-70 f/4 SDM is good enough for you.
And 3.5 fps is faster than the 3 fps the K20D can do.
So no, I don't have to wait until K-m will hit the stores, or for someone else to make a review.
About expecting too much, I try to expect only small improvements; this way I won't be disappointed when I'll see the new cameras.

RaduA, please... no need to respond like that to a personal attack. He is just a troll, not the first and certainly not the last a forum like this one will see
10-09-2008, 04:46 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
RaduA, please... no need to respond like that to a personal attack. He is just a troll, not the first and certainly not the last a forum like this one will see
Well, Kunzite

I know it, you know it, he knows it and so on. It's not like I am going to spend much time with this (censored).

Regards,
Radu

Well my post was deleted because I was aparently offensive in telling deeejjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa what I think about him. Taking the admin's observations seriously I will remove the "offensive" parts and repost my thoughts about what really matters and this is the K-m performance:
"About the K-m camera as usual your fingers are disconnected from your brain (I guess your overloaded with breathing and have no more processing power for some thinking). Leave this subject alone until you'll actually see one for yourself and let others who already have speak or write about things you just don't know."
For the record I tested a beta camera with 4 different lenses (none was the kit) in both SDM and screw drive and the performance was on par to my K20D. I assume that with final hardware some progress is to be expected.
For a while I am gonna let people like deeeeeeeeeeeeeejjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa to contribute unhindered on this forum. I guess my input is not that necessary anyway.

Last edited by RaduA; 10-09-2008 at 06:03 AM. Reason: final paragraph
10-09-2008, 05:39 AM   #132
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Steve, thanks for the reply.

Jeffkroll, thanks for the link. The graph for medium format 6x4.5 on the Clarkvision page is exactly what I was looking for. So for Tmax 6x4.5 the equivalent is roughly 18mpix. Multiplied by 1.5 to get to 6x7, you get 27mpix. Looks like 6x7 will not be beat for high res landscapes by the current crop and full frame sensors. Perhaps by the next generation though.

Boucicaut
10-09-2008, 07:53 AM   #133
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jeff never seizes to amaze me with the amount of information at his fingertips

thats a crazy ass graph!!!
10-20-2008, 04:58 PM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
By the way.. Do you think that that K300 and K30 will be moved up half a notch to make the K30 more pro and differentiate K-m/K2000 more from K300?
Yes, I do think thats the general plan....
10-20-2008, 05:12 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
But medium format digital is a closer option than 24x36, which has been stated in two recent interviews. So of the two options, the medium format digital is more likely than the 24x36.
Yes, thats what they are saying but the 645D is already known and optimistic vibrations keep the system "alive". An FF camera is not something Pentax have announced previously and it will obviously erode sales of their APS system if it leakes out. Nikon denied any plans of FF prior to the D3. .

The fact is that Pentax have both an FF camera and the 645D in the works. Neither is far away if either get the go ahead.
The sad news is that neither is likely to be manufcatured. As for the MF system; it production facilities have just been closed down in Japan. I refuse to believe that Pentax will retool in Vietnam for film MF camera and lenses. I don't know MF sales but must be close to zero. If Pentax retool for the MF lenses in Vietnam it probably means that the 645D has gotten the go ahead. The closure of the MF manufacturing in Japan is why the Pentax boss says a decision about the 645D needs to be made soon. I the face of the economic recession and Hoyas decision that any Pentax camera has to generate money, the 645D is highly unlikely.
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