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01-18-2019, 12:25 PM   #751
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The change of lens mount of MILC/2018 makes me understand how the ILC business works. So, if I understand correctly, camera makers develop a new lens mount. For this new lens mount they build up a portfolio of new lenses, customers buy the lenses when they have some pocket money, once the customers own a few lenses of the new mount the proprietary lens mount prevents most customers to change buy an equivalent system of another brand. Once there are enough lenses of proprietary mount, the market share is almost frozen (or can only change very slowly). Once the proprietary lens mount is established, camera companies make less new lenses and they upgrade camera bodies, camera bodies generate new cash. Customers already having the lenses keep upgrading their camera once in a while. So, that means, 2018 was likely an exceptional year, if the model I describe is right, in 2019 / 2020, we will see more new lenses and less new camera bodies. Since Ricoh don't use a new lens mount, they just have to release new bodies not necessarily as fast at the pace we have seen for MILC in 2018.
And in 15 years Canon/Nikon need another new mount to sell new lenses to their customers again.

01-18-2019, 12:33 PM   #752
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
And in 15 years Canon/Nikon need another new mount to sell new lenses to their customers again.
That's also what I think. Saving customer's money is the wrong strategy for the business. The way Sony have done was to release for each product line a new model every other year. I could see a lot of previous generation model for sale used. That pushed customer to spend a great deal of money in photo equipment. As a customer I don't like what Sony are doing. But of course, draining money from customers should please investors.
01-18-2019, 12:49 PM - 2 Likes   #753
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
And in 15 years Canon/Nikon need another new mount to sell new lenses to their customers again.
That is a rather cynical view.
Before EOS-R, the last FF mount change by Canon was thirty years ago.
01-18-2019, 01:16 PM - 2 Likes   #754
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
That is a rather cynical view.
Before EOS-R, the last FF mount change by Canon was thirty years ago.
If the older mounts are compatible, it makes no difference REH. Leica M-mounts cameras go back 50 years and the same mount is still used, though similar to Pentax K-mounts, HD or digital lenses have contact points allowing for auto aperture, etc. and/or ID of the lens itself to help set WB, while older lenses are as designed, fully manual, with aperture control.
However, even Leica changed to a different T/L mount for its T-series and S-series cameras and then provided an overpriced $400 M-mount to T-mount adapter to use M-glass in the T/L series cameras. Pentax did not do that at all. The K-1,in crop mode will handle all DA K-mount glass (albeit in a 15.5mp K-5ii resolution), but to Pentax's credit, the compatible backward ability of the K-1 series gives it a symbiotic connection to the APS-c foundation that Pentax developed over 2 decades of digital camera bodies.

01-18-2019, 01:59 PM - 1 Like   #755
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QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
If the older mounts are compatible, it makes no difference REH. Leica M-mounts cameras go back 50 years and the same mount is still used, though similar to Pentax K-mounts, HD or digital lenses have contact points allowing for auto aperture, etc. and/or ID of the lens itself to help set WB, while older lenses are as designed, fully manual, with aperture control.
However, even Leica changed to a different T/L mount for its T-series and S-series cameras and then provided an overpriced $400 M-mount to T-mount adapter to use M-glass in the T/L series cameras. Pentax did not do that at all. The K-1,in crop mode will handle all DA K-mount glass (albeit in a 15.5mp K-5ii resolution), but to Pentax's credit, the compatible backward ability of the K-1 series gives it a symbiotic connection to the APS-c foundation that Pentax developed over 2 decades of digital camera bodies.
Not only Pentax has crop mode in FF camera....

Pay attention, that FF market will be crowded with L-Mount Alliance Leica, Panasonic and SIGMA soon...
Leica has three new mounts, by the way. TL, SL and S.
01-18-2019, 02:00 PM - 2 Likes   #756
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TL and SL share the same Leica L mount like DX and FX share the same Nikon F mount.
01-18-2019, 02:03 PM - 1 Like   #757
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Not only Pentax has crop mode in FF camera....

Pay attention, that FF market will be crowded with L-Mount Alliance Leica, Panasonic and SIGMA soon...
Leica has three new mounts, by the way. TL, SL and S.
I have the T/S on my TL and CL Leicas...the S-series lenses use the same mount as TL but are FF; the TL/CL can use the S series but because they are APS-c mirrorless bodies the 1.5 focal point factor is involved. I'm glad Pentax is in the FF arena because, even in crop mode, the K-1 ii sensor and processor are top line: very good results thusfar.
01-18-2019, 02:06 PM - 1 Like   #758
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Leica S mount is the mount of their medium format reflex cameras.

01-18-2019, 02:48 PM - 1 Like   #759
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The change of lens mount of MILC/2018 makes me understand how the ILC business works. So, if I understand correctly, camera makers develop a new lens mount. For this new lens mount they build up a portfolio of new lenses, customers buy the lenses when they have some pocket money, once the customers own a few lenses of the new mount the proprietary lens mount prevents most customers to change buy an equivalent system of another brand. Once there are enough lenses of proprietary mount, the market share is almost frozen (or can only change very slowly). Once the proprietary lens mount is established, camera companies make less new lenses and they upgrade camera bodies, camera bodies generate new cash. Customers already having the lenses keep upgrading their camera once in a while. So, that means, 2018 was likely an exceptional year, if the model I describe is right, in 2019 / 2020, we will see more new lenses and less new camera bodies. Since Ricoh don't use a new lens mount, they just have to release new bodies not necessarily as fast at the pace we have seen for MILC in 2018.
saw an executive from leica discussing the idea that going forward there will be less opportunity for proprietary lens systems. canikon (not necessarily canikonasonic in this case, due to the "L MOUNT ALLIANCE"...) are going to run out of time on the proprietary shell game you described above. as the manufacturers open their doors to 3rd parties in an attempt to stay competitive, we will see an influx if not an all out race to the bottom by 3rd party manufacturers to be the next tokina or rokinon.

the leica ceo dude seemed perfectly comfortable with all of this, hence all their willy-nilly partnerships with the likes of huawei and panasonic of late i suppose. perhaps it is a realistic strategy for the modern world? a little diversification never hurt anyone.

it is ultimately less risk for the big boys to release less lenses for the new mounts, or at least go slow and steady with their release calendar. it is certainly easier than going toe-to-toe with the likes of the budget primes from the new random companies, which seem to be getting better by the day. why spend $2400 when you can spend $500? or buy FOUR primes for $2400?? that is the next two years. companies you have never heard of in your life getting great reviews...

Last edited by punkrachmaninov; 01-18-2019 at 06:32 PM.
01-18-2019, 08:22 PM   #760
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The change of lens mount of MILC/2018 makes me understand how the ILC business works. So, if I understand correctly, camera makers develop a new lens mount. For this new lens mount they build up a portfolio of new lenses, customers buy the lenses when they have some pocket money, once the customers own a few lenses of the new mount the proprietary lens mount prevents most customers to change buy an equivalent system of another brand. Once there are enough lenses of proprietary mount, the market share is almost frozen (or can only change very slowly). Once the proprietary lens mount is established, camera companies make less new lenses and they upgrade camera bodies, camera bodies generate new cash. Customers already having the lenses keep upgrading their camera once in a while. So, that means, 2018 was likely an exceptional year, if the model I describe is right, in 2019 / 2020, we will see more new lenses and less new camera bodies. Since Ricoh don't use a new lens mount, they just have to release new bodies not necessarily as fast at the pace we have seen for MILC in 2018.
This ^^

QuoteOriginally posted by taktoon Quote
Just thinking loud of new implementation of 16-50 DA*, AW with fast silent AF and sharp from 2.8. Once asahi man wrote that we can expect new versions of DA* lenses. Would be nice to see them together with DA* 11-18/2.8 on single presentation
And This ^^

DA* xx-xx/2.8 — 11-18 | 16-50 | 50-135 = FF equivalent * Holy Trinity (15-30 | 24-70 | *70-210). If the upgraded *16-50 and *50-135 are to the new *11-18 standard, there you go.

And they have talked about a ‘Evolution’ APSc Flagship. Maybe for late 2019 with a prototype under glass.

And some new FF lenses (more Limiteds and maybe a dummy DFA *85 or DFA *35). Is the Tokina Opera co-development partnership for more than one * lens?

They sell existing lenses out of batch inventory to obtain cash to develop new stuff.

Last edited by monochrome; 01-18-2019 at 08:28 PM.
01-19-2019, 04:02 AM - 1 Like   #761
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The change of lens mount of MILC/2018 makes me understand how the ILC business works. So, if I understand correctly, camera makers develop a new lens mount. For this new lens mount they build up a portfolio of new lenses, customers buy the lenses when they have some pocket money, once the customers own a few lenses of the new mount the proprietary lens mount prevents most customers to change buy an equivalent system of another brand. Once there are enough lenses of proprietary mount, the market share is almost frozen (or can only change very slowly). Once the proprietary lens mount is established, camera companies make less new lenses and they upgrade camera bodies, camera bodies generate new cash. Customers already having the lenses keep upgrading their camera once in a while. So, that means, 2018 was likely an exceptional year, if the model I describe is right, in 2019 / 2020, we will see more new lenses and less new camera bodies. Since Ricoh don't use a new lens mount, they just have to release new bodies not necessarily as fast at the pace we have seen for MILC in 2018.
Too true.

Why didn't Canon just stick with EOS mount on their mirrorless cameras? I suppose they would argue that they can make a little faster lenses or make their camera bodies slightly thinner or even allow for the mounting of third party lenses, but the reality is that it means a lot of new lens sales for Canon users when EOS sales had probably plateaued long ago and Canon wasn't sure what else to bring out.

Were Canon users really clamoring for a 3000 dollar 28-70 f2 zoom that weighs 1430 grams? Not too sure about that. The same with Nikon's really expensive 58mm f0.95. In the end Canon and Nikon won't sell many copies of these, but they will sell a bunch of 24-70 f4 lenses to folks who already owned versions for F and EOS mount and that should help their sales. In addition, Canon and Nikon's first forays into mirrorless aren't perfect and so people will be waiting for version two to jump on board or upgrade.
01-19-2019, 05:02 AM - 1 Like   #762
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We are forgetting something. 10, maybe 20 years from now, a significant part of the R/Z user base which never had any DSLR would have difficulties to accept their cameras are suboptimal because of backwards compatibility reasons.
They'd be more or less in the same situation as Sony FE.

A new camera mount is introduced for the future, not for the immediate 2-3 years. This isn't a senseless move made only to get sales.
01-19-2019, 05:19 AM - 2 Likes   #763
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I suppose they would argue that they can make a little faster lenses or make their camera bodies slightly thinner
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Were Canon users really clamoring for a 3000 dollar 28-70 f2 zoom that weighs 1430 grams?
We see that the Nikon Z struggle to focus in low light or dark subjects. I guess the reason for faster lenses is to ease auto-focus on image sensor. Canon designers saw that low light AF would be a problem for on sensor PDAF, and given limited DR of canon sensors, so they likely included the constrain in system design, leading to faster glass but also bigger glass. Physically, the problem with on sensor PDAF is that the AF point cannot be small and low light sensitive at the same time, this is lesser issue with SLR because the collimator and PDAF sensor on SLR can be size independently from image sensor. My experience with the A7III is that it is slower to AF in low light compared to the K1, with f5.6 lens.
01-19-2019, 06:06 AM - 1 Like   #764
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
We see that the Nikon Z struggle to focus in low light or dark subjects. I guess the reason for faster lenses is to ease auto-focus on image sensor. Canon designers saw that low light AF would be a problem for on sensor PDAF, and given limited DR of canon sensors, so they likely included the constrain in system design, leading to faster glass but also bigger glass. Physically, the problem with on sensor PDAF is that the AF point cannot be small and low light sensitive at the same time, this is lesser issue with SLR because the collimator and PDAF sensor on SLR can be size independently from image sensor. My experience with the A7III is that it is slower to AF in low light compared to the K1, with f5.6 lens.
You're probably right, but I guess I think that these are more the sort of lenses that give mystique to a system but extremely few people actually purchase. No professional photographer is going to shoot a wedding or even a portrait shoot with a 28-70 f2 lens. It is just way too big. They'll use a 24-70 f2.8 (I suppose adapted at this point) and use primes if they want something faster. The people who will purchase lenses like these will be wealthy amateurs who have to have "the best," regardless of the cost.

I will say that the more I read about PDAF on the sensor the more dubious I am for it as a long term solution. Even Falconeye said that he thought it was at best a transition step till contrast auto focus was good enough -- mainly because it inserted its own set of problems into the equation.
01-19-2019, 09:46 AM - 1 Like   #765
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Too true.

Why didn't Canon just stick with EOS mount on their mirrorless cameras? I suppose they would argue that they can make a little faster lenses or make their camera bodies slightly thinner or even allow for the mounting of third party lenses, but the reality is that it means a lot of new lens sales for Canon users when EOS sales had probably plateaued long ago and Canon wasn't sure what else to bring out.
Canon engineers have over 30 years of experience with the EOS-EF mount; I am guessing their experience tells them they needed a wider mount throat to get the AF they wanted, and they shortened the flange distance also to get the EOS-R mount. If they had gone with the EOS-EF mount on their FF MILC cameras, they would have had to go with a thicker body, which many here say is the reason Pentax shouldn't stick with K-mount for MILC; I don't agree with that logic - looking at the size grip they burden those cameras with. Incidentally, someone who doesn't want to purchase the new lenses doesn't have to. The Canon adapters - both EOS-FF to EOS-R, and EOS-FF to EOS-M, are fully functional .... an EOS-FF lens mounted on a Canon MILC is just as good as it was on a comparable Canon DSLR.
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