Nippon Camera Ricoh/Pentax 2019 Interview

**BigMackCam** · 01-24-2019, 12:14 PM - **2 Likes**

In fact, we've gone massively off-topic here. And I'm as guilty as the rest. Call myself a moderator?! Sheesh...

I'm going to open a new thread on so-called equivalence and state my own personal understanding of what it is, why I think it can be a useful concept, why it has helped me, and why so many folks get confused by it.

And, when I've opened that thread, I cordially invite interested parties to join the thread and kick the stuffing out of me

reh321 · 01-24-2019, 12:17 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BigMackCam

In fact, we've gone massively off-topic here. And I'm as guilty as the rest. Call myself a moderator?! Sheesh...

I'm going to open a new thread on so-called equivalence and state my own personal understanding of what it is, why I think it can be a useful concept, why it has helped me, and why so many folks get confused by it.

And, when I've opened that thread, I cordially invite interested parties to join the thread and kick the stuffing out of me

and I'll explain why it is irrelevant to others of us - during my walk today I decided that goals play a major role here.

normhead · 01-24-2019, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Norm...

If I take two portrait photos of my friend at the same camera to subject distance - one with my APS-C Pentax K-3 plus Helios-44-2 58mm f/2 lens wide open, the other with my full frame Sony A7 MkII and, say, a Jupiter-9 85mm f/2 lens set at f/2.8 - are you saying those shots won't display roughly the same field of view, and roughly the same depth of field?

I'm not talking about every aspect of the two photos being identical (colours, contrast, resolution, aberrations, out-of-focus rendering qualities etc.), but just those two properties - field of view, and depth of field - being very similar.

Ya, I get that. But really is FL all you care about. Especially with portraits, I'll shoot portraits with my Sigma 70 macro or DA*55. It's not the FL, it's the characteristics of the lens I'm looking for.

**BigMackCam** · 01-24-2019, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Ya, I get that. But really is FL all you care about.

Absolutely not. My point is, it gets you in the ball-park in terms of framing and creative depth of field.

Originally posted by normhead

It's not the FL, it's the characteristics of the lens I'm looking for.

Agreed, Norm... Me too. But if we're trying to approximate similar result between formats, or understand how a specific focal length lens will be useful on another format, broadly equivalent field of view and creative depth-of-field gets us in the ball-park ... after which the character of each lens kicks in. My definition of "equivalence" (flawed though it may be) relates only to the field of view and depth of field. Personally, I consider rendering to be a different though equally important subject.

More to come in a thread I'm working on. And I hope you'll contribute to that, as your views (and those of everyone else here) are valid, important and appreciated. I just can't promise to agree with them

I like these debates where we have very different opinions yet bang each other over the head respectfully

**monochrome** · 01-24-2019, 02:10 PM - **1 Like**

If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot?

.:

Kunzite · 01-24-2019, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

But if we're trying to approximate similar result

What is a similar result?

Fogel70 · 01-24-2019, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot?

.:

l would use K1ll with DA70.

**BigMackCam** · 01-24-2019, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

What is a similar result?

My loose definition of "similar" result is, similar field of view and similar depth of field. Beyond that, we get into lens characteristics and camera sensor performance differences - and all bets are off there. To me, field of view and depth of field get folks in the ball-park

New thread about to be posted...

reh321 · 01-24-2019, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Fogel70

l would use K1ll with DA70.

Would you use it at f/11 or would you be willing to tolerate vignetting / soft corners at wider apertures?

Fogel70 · 01-24-2019, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by reh321

Would you use it at f/11 or would you be willing to tolerate vignetting / soft corners at wider apertures?

I would use whatever aperture that give the DOF I need, vignetting is easy to correct in post if needed, and I'm pretty sure DA70 give better corner performance than K105 on K1II.

**Rondec** · 01-24-2019, 03:26 PM - **2 Likes**

The whole point of equivalence is that you have to have a point of reference. There needs to be some size sensor camera that you are used to shooting. For me, oddly, I was used to shooting APS-C cameras, ever since the K-100 came out and equivalence helped me to understand, not just how focal lengths look different when shot on a different size sensor, but also how depth of field changes. I was used to shooting my DA 15 at f8 on APS-C and suddenly, I was shooting at f8 on a K-1 and I didn't have the same in focus range to my images. It didn't take too long to figure it out, but knowing that I had to stop down a bit more was helpful. The fact that I liked the FA 77 on APS-C let me know that I would like a 135mm prime on full frame.

The whole point of the equations is not to "prove" anything, but to help us to understand how to move between formats and get similar results to what we are used to on whatever format we are used to. It also does explain why larger sensors tend to perform better than smaller ones.

---------- Post added 01-24-19 at 05:27 PM ----------

Originally posted by monochrome

If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot?

.:

Why wouldn't you use your FA 77 on the K-1 II?

**BigMackCam** · 01-24-2019, 03:40 PM - **1 Like**

In case you haven't seen it yet, I posted a new thread:

"Equivalence" between formats and lenses... - PentaxForums.com

My apologies for my own part in taking this thread off-topic

For those that are interested, let's pick up the equivalence discussion at the new thread? Thanks

**Merv-O** · 01-24-2019, 04:47 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot?

.:

I would shoot both, but I have a feeling that DA 70mm f2.4 is going to really be sharp. The LTD line is really among Pentax's best.

Not a Number · 01-24-2019, 06:16 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by BigMackCam

In case you haven't seen it yet, I posted a new thread:

"Equivalence" between formats and lenses... - PentaxForums.com

My apologies for my own part in taking this thread off-topic

For those that are interested, let's pick up the equivalence discussion at the new thread? Thanks

Why don't you move the equivalence discussion from this thread to the new one?

BrianR · 01-24-2019, 08:47 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot?

.:

Two-fist it, one camera in each hand. The shake reduction should make one-handing these combos no problem

.

01-24-2019, 08:47 PM - 1 Like	#870
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by monochrome If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot? .: Two-fist it, one camera in each hand. The shake reduction should make one-handing these combos no problem.

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01-24-2019, 12:14 PM - 2 Likes	#856
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	In fact, we've gone massively off-topic here. And I'm as guilty as the rest. Call myself a moderator?! Sheesh... I'm going to open a new thread on so-called equivalence and state my own personal understanding of what it is, why I think it can be a useful concept, why it has helped me, and why so many folks get confused by it. And, when I've opened that thread, I cordially invite interested parties to join the thread and kick the stuffing out of me

01-24-2019, 12:17 PM - 1 Like	#857
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by BigMackCam In fact, we've gone massively off-topic here. And I'm as guilty as the rest. Call myself a moderator?! Sheesh... I'm going to open a new thread on so-called equivalence and state my own personal understanding of what it is, why I think it can be a useful concept, why it has helped me, and why so many folks get confused by it. And, when I've opened that thread, I cordially invite interested parties to join the thread and kick the stuffing out of me and I'll explain why it is irrelevant to others of us - during my walk today I decided that goals play a major role here.

01-24-2019, 01:40 PM	#858
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by BigMackCam Norm... If I take two portrait photos of my friend at the same camera to subject distance - one with my APS-C Pentax K-3 plus Helios-44-2 58mm f/2 lens wide open, the other with my full frame Sony A7 MkII and, say, a Jupiter-9 85mm f/2 lens set at f/2.8 - are you saying those shots won't display roughly the same field of view, and roughly the same depth of field? I'm not talking about every aspect of the two photos being identical (colours, contrast, resolution, aberrations, out-of-focus rendering qualities etc.), but just those two properties - field of view, and depth of field - being very similar. Ya, I get that. But really is FL all you care about. Especially with portraits, I'll shoot portraits with my Sigma 70 macro or DA*55. It's not the FL, it's the characteristics of the lens I'm looking for.

01-24-2019, 01:50 PM	#859
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by normhead Ya, I get that. But really is FL all you care about. Absolutely not. My point is, it gets you in the ball-park in terms of framing and creative depth of field. Originally posted by normhead It's not the FL, it's the characteristics of the lens I'm looking for. Agreed, Norm... Me too. But if we're trying to approximate similar result between formats, or understand how a specific focal length lens will be useful on another format, broadly equivalent field of view and creative depth-of-field gets us in the ball-park ... after which the character of each lens kicks in. My definition of "equivalence" (flawed though it may be) relates only to the field of view and depth of field. Personally, I consider rendering to be a different though equally important subject. More to come in a thread I'm working on. And I hope you'll contribute to that, as your views (and those of everyone else here) are valid, important and appreciated. I just can't promise to agree with them I like these debates where we have very different opinions yet bang each other over the head respectfully

01-24-2019, 02:10 PM - 1 Like	#860
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot? .:

01-24-2019, 02:13 PM	#861
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by BigMackCam But if we're trying to approximate similar result What is a similar result?

01-24-2019, 02:41 PM	#862
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by monochrome If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot? .: l would use K1ll with DA70.

01-24-2019, 02:47 PM	#863
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	Originally posted by Kunzite What is a similar result? My loose definition of "similar" result is, similar field of view and similar depth of field. Beyond that, we get into lens characteristics and camera sensor performance differences - and all bets are off there. To me, field of view and depth of field get folks in the ball-park New thread about to be posted...

01-24-2019, 02:56 PM	#864
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by Fogel70 l would use K1ll with DA70. Would you use it at f/11 or would you be willing to tolerate vignetting / soft corners at wider apertures?

01-24-2019, 03:13 PM	#865
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by reh321 Would you use it at f/11 or would you be willing to tolerate vignetting / soft corners at wider apertures? I would use whatever aperture that give the DOF I need, vignetting is easy to correct in post if needed, and I'm pretty sure DA70 give better corner performance than K105 on K1II.

01-24-2019, 03:26 PM - 2 Likes	#866
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	The whole point of equivalence is that you have to have a point of reference. There needs to be some size sensor camera that you are used to shooting. For me, oddly, I was used to shooting APS-C cameras, ever since the K-100 came out and equivalence helped me to understand, not just how focal lengths look different when shot on a different size sensor, but also how depth of field changes. I was used to shooting my DA 15 at f8 on APS-C and suddenly, I was shooting at f8 on a K-1 and I didn't have the same in focus range to my images. It didn't take too long to figure it out, but knowing that I had to stop down a bit more was helpful. The fact that I liked the FA 77 on APS-C let me know that I would like a 135mm prime on full frame. The whole point of the equations is not to "prove" anything, but to help us to understand how to move between formats and get similar results to what we are used to on whatever format we are used to. It also does explain why larger sensors tend to perform better than smaller ones. ---------- Post added 01-24-19 at 05:27 PM ---------- Originally posted by monochrome If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot? .: Why wouldn't you use your FA 77 on the K-1 II?

01-24-2019, 03:40 PM - 1 Like	#867
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,670	In case you haven't seen it yet, I posted a new thread: "Equivalence" between formats and lenses... - PentaxForums.com My apologies for my own part in taking this thread off-topic For those that are interested, let's pick up the equivalence discussion at the new thread? Thanks

01-24-2019, 04:47 PM - 1 Like	#868
Merv-O Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Philadelphia Photos: Albums Posts: 2,098	Originally posted by monochrome If I have in my bag a K-1ll with K105/2.8 and a KP with DA70/2.4, which should I use for an outdoors couple shot? .: I would shoot both, but I have a feeling that DA 70mm f2.4 is going to really be sharp. The LTD line is really among Pentax's best.

01-24-2019, 06:16 PM - 1 Like	#869
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Originally posted by BigMackCam In case you haven't seen it yet, I posted a new thread: "Equivalence" between formats and lenses... - PentaxForums.com My apologies for my own part in taking this thread off-topic For those that are interested, let's pick up the equivalence discussion at the new thread? Thanks Why don't you move the equivalence discussion from this thread to the new one?