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01-03-2019, 02:33 PM - 1 Like   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The camera segment isn't growing anymore, at best it is going to be flat , not company invest more money than they can get back in the short term (i.e not risky capital investment involved), it's going to be the case for all camera makers. I don't believe any camera company is increasing their headcount for new camera developments, they are reassigning the same staff to new projects, there's no new investment. Ricoh Imaging are going to do the same or stop: they keep a minimal team that they have to pay monthly anyway, and with that team decide what kind of product they do. Given market share, Ricoh Imaging won't be smaller, smaller would mean stop, so they are going to do the kind of product that they can do with the staff they have and they are going to take the time they need, regardless of the pace that the market demands. If it happens that it will not be profitable anymore, Ricoh will stop cameras. So, all that means if that new products have to be expensive products, nothing like Pentax Q, Theta, or maybe even apsc, possibly only Full Frame and Medium format.
They'd be crazy to stop manufacturing APS-c. That's the largest part of their user base. That being said, not making the 11-18 FF was also a mistake. APS-c could use an FF 11-18, and it would add all those FF users to the buyer pool. If it had been FF compatible it definitely would've been the next lens I bought.


Last edited by normhead; 01-03-2019 at 07:12 PM.
01-03-2019, 02:37 PM - 2 Likes   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Hopefully that means the ~70-300 on the roadmap will be a compact lens in the style of the DFA 28-105. But we also need a compact wide-angle zoom as well.
Yes, 70-300 f4-5.6 like the 28-105 makes a lot of sense along with K3ii replacement and DA wide-angle zoom.
01-03-2019, 02:38 PM - 1 Like   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
APS-c could use an FF 11-18, and it would add all those FF users to the buyer pool. If it had been FF compatible it definitely would've been the next lens I bought.
Clear. I have the DFA15-30, if the 11-18 was f4 covering the K1 image circle, I'd immediately sell the 15-30 and buy the 11-18 (f4). Designing lenses dedicated to only one format doesn't leverage dev. costs.
01-03-2019, 02:40 PM - 4 Likes   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
They be crazy to stop manufacturing APS-c. That's the largest part of their user base. That being said, not making the 11-18 FF was also a mistake. APS-c could use an FF 11-18, and it would add all those FF users to the buyer pool. If it had been FF compatible it definitely would've been the next lens I bought.
The DFA 15-30 is big enough and wide enough for me on FF.

I want my APS-C lenses as compact as possible. I suspect the DA 11-18 f/2.8 will already be large and heavy enough, best not to make it more so by making it cover FF.

01-03-2019, 03:15 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
They be crazy to stop manufacturing APS-c.
Depends what kind of apsc they do. Canon EOS 100 with 15-45 lens kit costs 343 Euros, Canon can make money out of cheap stuff by selling tons of them, I don't see how a Pentax of the same kind would make money.
01-03-2019, 03:54 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
They be crazy to stop manufacturing APS-c.
There is a market for aps-c. I think that is moving up in price and specs. So KP-ii will maybe become the entry-level for Pentax.
01-03-2019, 05:49 PM - 2 Likes   #82
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So.. they gave 645 MF market to Fuji with no new camera expected in next few years and no lenses introduced in last few years.

Q system is dead for sure.

FF system is laughable if compared to any other current FF system because important FF lenses like 12-24, 20/1.4, 24/1.4, 28/1.4, 35/1.4, 85/1.4, 135/1.8 etc are still missing, while competitors do offer them and in most cases customers even have choice between own or 3rd party options. Not to mention telephoto lenses or special lenses like tilt-shift.

And it looks like they even left the APS-C market to competitors now.. 11-18/2.8 might be ok, but we still have same old DA* line since 10mpix camera era and no advanced body since K3..

And while we can read that xx or yy is under development again and again, competitors are fielding new cameras and lenses every year. No suprise, that Pentax now has lost 3rd party AF lens support and that most camera shops removed Pentax from portfolio completely.

They can eat that GRIII.. that won't save them.

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 01:58 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's fine to have 4 years life cycles, if competitors do the same.

645Z is 2014 camera... for comparison Fuji in last 2 years prepared GFX50S and GFX50R

HD DFA645 35/3.5 is 2015 lens.. for comparison Fuji since that time released 7 GF lenses..


As a MF customer all I can see is dying Pentax 645 system and fast growing Fuji GF645 system with modern lenses. Guess where customers go...

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 02:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
They be crazy to stop manufacturing APS-c. That's the largest part of their user base. That being said, not making the 11-18 FF was also a mistake. APS-c could use an FF 11-18, and it would add all those FF users to the buyer pool. If it had been FF compatible it definitely would've been the next lens I bought.

FF11-18/2.8 lens would be in $4000+ range. Forget that APS-C users would buy such thing in any interesting numbers.
For comparison Canon 11-24/4 cost more than $2500 and you want 11mm wide F2.8 fullframe zoom lens... that would be monster. Big, heavy and horribly expensive.


I'd rather see FF 24/1.4 or FF24/1.8 and FF 35/1.4 lenses that are good both for FF and APS-C while having at least somewhat affordable price.
And also some UWA FF lens like FF12-24/4 again both usable for FF and APS-C while keeping price that some can afford.

Also some cheap small FF 70-300/4-6.3 is missing. We have several different DA55-300 lenses but none of them fully compatible with FF cameras. This only shows how chaotic that FF project is.
01-03-2019, 06:21 PM - 1 Like   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
And it looks like they even left the APS-C market to competitors now..
I'm not convinced this is the situation for my own circumstance.

Assuming that Fujifilm is a serious competitor in the APS-C domain, I was interested in a comparable Fuji kit and its cost to replace my main Pentax kit.

My baseline Pentax kit:

K-3 II
DA 15mm Ltd f/4
DA 21mm Ltd f/3.2
DA 35 Ltd Macro f/2.8
DA * 300mm f/4
DA * 50-135 f/2.8
DA 18-135 WR f/3.5-5.6

Total mass: 3,480 g (7.7 pounds)


Currently, I think that the appropriate Fuji kit would be:

X-T3
XF 14mm f/2.8 R
XF 23mm f/2 R WR
XF 35mm f/2 R WR
XF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 R LM OIS WR
XF 50-140mm f/2.8 R LM OIS WR
XF 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 R LM OIS WR

Total mass: 3,980 g (8.8 pounds). The main weight drivers are the 50-140mm and 100-400mm lenses, and the X-T3 with either of these lenses is heavier than my Pentax equivalent. Fuji does not have a comparable 300mm telephoto prime lens at present.

Furthermore, the current price for this Fuji kit in Canada is CAD $9,150. (I didn't look up the current prices for the Pentax gear, but I believe it is considerably less than the Fuji). I might be able to sell my Pentax gear in the used market and get about $3,000 total. So, it would cost me about $6,000 to move to Fuji APS-C. I don't think my pictures would be much better than what I get now with my 'old' K-3 II, if at all.

So, in my circumstance, I don't think that Fuji offers a competitive value-for-money proposition, but I am already secure with my Pentax gear. Of course, a newcomer to APS-C probably could not buy a new K-3 II easily, so they might consider a KP, which probably prompts a different equivalent Fuji kit in the above comparison.

- Craig


Last edited by c.a.m; 01-03-2019 at 06:33 PM. Reason: clarification on APS-C competitor
01-03-2019, 06:22 PM - 1 Like   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
More financial than technical, I think, and the D-FA* 70-200/2.8 is a top class lens also. The Ricoh/Pentax team can come up with the goods.
Top class in which world? It does not even have fast ring ultrasonic motor.. motor that was used on canon top lenses since 1990 and is professional standard for such lenses. Nikon has it, Sony has it, Sigma has it, Tamron has it.. Pentax does not. Oh yes.. top class.. sure. Get that lens, put it on K1 and go do some sport stuff. Then put 70-200/2.8 IS USM II on 5DmkIV and compare. Night and day. And funny is that even cheap 12+ years old Sigma 70-200/2.8 HSM II can refocus almost instantly..

These 70-200/2.8 expensive lenses are not aimed for landscape creators... these are supposed to be hi-end lenses for toughest stuff. For action shots, sports, fast moving objects combined with shallow depth of field.

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 02:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
I'm not convinced this is the situation for my own circumstance.

Assuming that Fujifilm is the main competitor in the APS-C domain, I was interested in a comparable Fuji kit and its cost to replace my main Pentax kit.

My baseline Pentax kit:

K-3 II
DA 15mm Ltd f/4
DA 21mm Ltd f/3.2
DA 35 Ltd Macro f/2.8
DA * 300mm f/4
DA * 50-135 f/2.8
DA 18-135 WR f/3.5-5.6

Total mass: 3,480 g (7.7 pounds)


Currently, I think that the appropriate Fuji kit would be:

X-T3

XF 14mm f/2.8 R
XF 23mm f/2 R WR
XF 35mm f/2 R WR
XF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 R LM OIS WR
XF 50-140mm f/2.8 R LM OIS WR
XF 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 R LM OIS WR

Total mass: 3,980 g (8.8 pounds). The main weight drivers are the 50-140mm and 100-400mm lenses, and the X-T3 with either of these lenses is heavier than my Pentax equivalent. Fuji does not have a comparable 300mm telephoto at present.

Furthermore, the current price for this Fuji kit in Canada is CAD $9,150. I might be able to sell my Pentax gear in the used market and get about $3,000 total. So, it would cost me about $6,000 to move to Fuji APS-C. I don't think my pictures would be much better than what I get now with my 'old' K-3 II, if at all.

So, in my circumstance, I don't think that Fuji offers a competitive value-for-money proposition, but I am already secure with my Pentax gear. Of course, a newcomer to APS-C probably could not buy a new K-3 II easily, so they might consider a KP, which probably prompts a different equivalent Fuji kit in the above comparison.

- Craig

So you are comparing F4 lenses with F2 lenses and 300/4 with zoom.. hmmmmmmmmmmm put 150-450 there instead. Then you add price of used equipment and compare that with new fuji. At first you have to realize that you are already Pentax user, but now think about this system as a newcomer. Company cannot survive with current neglected and shrinking base of camera owners. They need to attract new guys and even lure some guys from other brands.

Btw give me some modern 23/2 with K mount, I'll be happy. My FA*24/2 is old, big and not on par with modern lenses. Not to mention that Fuji offers a lot of F1.4 versions in those focal lengths too..

Fuji is not direct competitor, Pentax does not have any mirrorless system. Canon and Nikon are main competitors because they offer DSLR. But Fuji is very attractive alternative mainly for newcomers and with current tempo it is deathtrap for our pentax.
01-03-2019, 08:18 PM - 1 Like   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
It is not coming in 2019.
You need to wait 51 weeks before you can write those words with certainty.
Pentax tends to surprise us with their last instant actions.
01-03-2019, 08:26 PM - 3 Likes   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Serving customers but not following trends is something difficult to do when customers are following the trends. If customers don't follow the trends, then trends rarely exist.
That logic only applies if 100% of the customers follow 100% of the trends and serving customers requires serving that 100% of the customers.

Marketshare is a double-edge sword. Those who have high marketshare are at the mercy of customer trends. They go bankrupt unless to follow the crowd in order to keep their volumes high.

Even if 80% of the customers follow 80% of the trends, there's a viable business in serving the 20% of customers who don't want a "trendy" mainstream product.
01-03-2019, 08:45 PM   #87
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I'm hopeful on keeping APS-C around, even if it goes mirrorless only.
FF/MF is the higher end market that Ricoh/Pentax makes its money on - at least in North America. The US market (Canada as well) is not the high volume that it was. Many have gone to mass use of cellphones for images... which do a great job for ~+90% of general 'users'. Enthusiasts will still end up on APS-C, but its market place - in North America is not what it was. Professionals will still opt for FF or MF, while some may use APS-C depending on the nature of the photography. I personally like my K-70, and I use it for items that I cannot see most cellphones/compacts taking.
01-03-2019, 09:18 PM - 1 Like   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
It is not coming in 2019.
Fixed that for you.
01-03-2019, 11:37 PM - 4 Likes   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
Top class in which world? It does not even have fast ring ultrasonic motor.. motor that was used on canon top lenses since 1990 and is professional standard for such lenses. Nikon has it, Sony has it, Sigma has it, Tamron has it.. Pentax does not. Oh yes.. top class.. sure. Get that lens, put it on K1 and go do some sport stuff. Then put 70-200/2.8 IS USM II on 5DmkIV and compare. Night and day. And funny is that even cheap 12+ years old Sigma 70-200/2.8 HSM II can refocus almost instantly..

These 70-200/2.8 expensive lenses are not aimed for landscape creators... these are supposed to be hi-end lenses for toughest stuff. For action shots, sports, fast moving objects combined with shallow depth of field.

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 02:31 AM ----------




So you are comparing F4 lenses with F2 lenses and 300/4 with zoom.. hmmmmmmmmmmm put 150-450 there instead. Then you add price of used equipment and compare that with new fuji. At first you have to realize that you are already Pentax user, but now think about this system as a newcomer. Company cannot survive with current neglected and shrinking base of camera owners. They need to attract new guys and even lure some guys from other brands.

Btw give me some modern 23/2 with K mount, I'll be happy. My FA*24/2 is old, big and not on par with modern lenses. Not to mention that Fuji offers a lot of F1.4 versions in those focal lengths too..

Fuji is not direct competitor, Pentax does not have any mirrorless system. Canon and Nikon are main competitors because they offer DSLR. But Fuji is very attractive alternative mainly for newcomers and with current tempo it is deathtrap for our pentax.
no, you got it wrong. Canon and Nikon is not main competitors. neither is Fuji. it is these guys who are claiming what and where is wrong and not worth it. and as far as your phrases goes, you do not really care for pentax. it has never been sport/fast action/high burst camera. so claiming or looking for that you are in wrong place. But if you know what you are doing and are skilled enough, it can even be used for sport photography.

for not having ultrasonic ring motor. that DC does pretty good job, and it is professional grade lens. problem would be K-1 which is not action camera, as also FPS would imply. it IS landscape/portrait/studio camera with killer imagequality...compared to your beloved Canon for example. if that is not enough, then look elsewhere. simple. bashing Pentax for what it is not is not really smart.
01-03-2019, 11:47 PM - 5 Likes   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
FF system is laughable if compared to any other current FF system because important FF lenses like 12-24, 20/1.4, 24/1.4, 28/1.4, 35/1.4, 85/1.4, 135/1.8 etc are still missing, while competitors do offer them and in most cases customers even have choice between own or 3rd party options. Not to mention telephoto lenses or special lenses like tilt-shift.
You are too extreme in your assessments. Personally I like the Leica SL, it has less lenses than the Pentax FF, but the images produced by the Leica SL are fantastic. Don't confuse quantity with quality. Photography is not about the quantity of lenses, it's about quality. The Pentax full frame system, while it's true doesn't have many new lenses, has only best in class DFA lenses, there is no average DFA lens, they are all good. Your posts are more an attempt to attract attention rather than anything rational, and it works, we reply to your constant negative comments. Negative comments often come from individuals who never used the products that they are talking about. How can someone give a valid opinion on a camera system that he never used?

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 07:48 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Marketshare is a double-edge sword. Those who have high marketshare are at the mercy of customer trends. They go bankrupt unless to follow the crowd in order to keep their volumes high.
I know :-)

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-04-2019 at 12:06 AM.
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