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01-04-2019, 12:59 AM - 1 Like   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
I want my APS-C lenses as compact as possible. I suspect the DA 11-18 f/2.8 will already be large and heavy enough, best not to make it more so by making it cover FF.
Hear, hear!

01-04-2019, 01:03 AM - 4 Likes   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
That logic only applies if 100% of the customers follow 100% of the trends and serving customers requires serving that 100% of the customers.

Marketshare is a double-edge sword. Those who have high marketshare are at the mercy of customer trends. They go bankrupt unless to follow the crowd in order to keep their volumes high.

Even if 80% of the customers follow 80% of the trends, there's a viable business in serving the 20% of customers who don't want a "trendy" mainstream product.
Ooh, can this be a sticky? A niche brand can concentrate on what it does best while the main players - high volume, low margin - flounder in a shrinking and changing market.
01-04-2019, 01:37 AM - 3 Likes   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
So.. they gave 645 MF market to Fuji with no new camera expected in next few years
What makes you so certain?

QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
FF system is laughable if compared to any other current FF system because important FF lenses like 12-24, 20/1.4, 24/1.4, 28/1.4, 35/1.4, 85/1.4, 135/1.8 etc are still missing, while competitors do offer them and in most cases customers even have choice between own or 3rd party options. Not to mention telephoto lenses or special lenses like tilt-shift.
Hmm... I can think of 3 FF systems that don't have most of what you're mentioning there: R, Z, L. 4, with Leica M. 5 with Sony FE which is missing a few (most, if we're strict about the specs) of those. I'm sure I could find another system or two which doesn't offer equivalent lenses.
But it is only Pentax which is "laughable", isn't it?

Once again, a simple interview activates the bashing. Either of the interview itself - as they didn't publish the specs on the November camera or something - or Pentax.

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 10:42 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Serving customers but not following trends is something difficult to do when customers are following the trends. If customers don't follow the trends, then trends rarely exist.
"Following trends" to me is doing what's more popular and ignoring everything else.
People have vastly different needs and wants, and as Pentaxians we're rather on the "everything else" side. Maybe "following trends" truly means ignoring the Pentaxians?
01-04-2019, 01:50 AM - 2 Likes   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Ooh, can this be a sticky? A niche brand can concentrate on what it does best while the main players - high volume, low margin - flounder in a shrinking and changing market.
I wouldn't like to be at Canon currently. EOS R sales are less than expected. Relative to market share, mirrorless 2018 models are far less successful than the K1 was after introduction. Hint is that both Nikon and now Panasonic are using teasing like Pentax did prior to releasing products. Pentax are small, but at the moment the gap is getting smaller between the big brands and the small brands. Canon is like the super tanker with the keel scratching the bottom of the pond.

01-04-2019, 02:00 AM - 1 Like   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Pentax are small, but at the moment the gap is getting smaller between the big brands and the small brands.
Just curious: in which respect is the gap getting smaller?
01-04-2019, 02:03 AM - 1 Like   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
FF system is laughable if compared to any other current FF system because important FF lenses like 12-24, 20/1.4, 24/1.4, 28/1.4, 35/1.4, 85/1.4, 135/1.8 etc are still missing, while competitors do offer them and in most cases customers even have choice between own or 3rd party options. Not to mention telephoto lenses or special lenses like tilt-shift.
That said, if I'm referring to the list of gear on your PF profile, the Pentax K1 would deliver better images than even all the old equipment you currently have.

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 10:19 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rullrich Quote
Just curious: in which respect is the gap getting smaller?
The large brands have more fixed costs due to having an organization sized to operate in the large camera market that was there 10 years ago. Pentax have , a long time ago, redirected commercial efforts to mostly online, and downsized their staff to minimum. There are some franchised Canon shops that are moving from a Canon franchise promoting Canon on top, to generic camera seller of all brands. Some Canon shops tightly controlled the offering, but now they can sell whatever they want including Pentax.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-04-2019 at 02:23 AM.
01-04-2019, 02:46 AM - 2 Likes   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
You need to wait 51 weeks before you can write those words with certainty.
Pentax tends to surprise us with their last instant actions.
I know. I'm still dazzeled by the WG-60!

01-04-2019, 03:19 AM - 1 Like   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Yes, that's excellent to realize the new Pentax products aren't so unique anymore: lenses are as big and sometimes even heavier than lenses from other brands. And that's because from day 1, Ricoh immediately worked on providing products that match the common needs of the same market. For example, if you mount a limited lens on a Pentax K1, you still don't have a compact camera, but on the other hand, the lens cost as much as a bigger better more balanced one. Digital camera technology has changed a lot, things that were good to do 20 years ago aren't necessarily the right things to do in 2019. Saving 200gr and 1" on a mirrorless body doesn't make sense when used with a large lens. And using a tiny lens with a thick DSLR body doesn't make sense either. The design of the complete system is what counts to make a compelling product, and being different and not as good as competition is not an advantage. The minimum for product succeed is to be at least like the competition, and then add unique feature on top.

---------- Post added 03-01-19 at 22:05 ----------


Ah ok. So you are more optimistic now than you used to be.
I agree. Performance wise you are reaching MF territory with this generation of FF sensors and this calls for a specific type of quality in lenses, in best case with some overhead, to cater also for the following generation. If we look at the price FF might be considered as still affordable, but if you were looking for the consumer niche of light, affordable, compact, limited characteristics and maybe the one or other "innovation" - to put it short: the layd back upper amateur, who might have used a MX, LX, Mz-3, K-5 etc. you might find that more in APS-C (just saying KP). IQ wise there is nothing to be desired. It's a business decision that is pushing towards fullframe, not consumer needs.
That's why I think FF will cover all bases with high grade performers, even if some think this might be just boring.
01-04-2019, 03:21 AM - 1 Like   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by rullrich Quote
Just curious: in which respect is the gap getting smaller?
Canon and Nikon releasing cameras with AF-C closer to Pentax'
01-04-2019, 03:21 AM   #100
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Ohh RICOH RICOH.. when will be the day that people will finally understand the logic/path/vision/etc of what you are doing?? not knowing what the heck is going on around Pentax is terrible for the brand if we consider how things are moving this days.
01-04-2019, 03:32 AM - 1 Like   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
If you're talking about Jun Hirakawa, then it's only fair to note that such well-regarded lenses as the DA 16-85, DA 20-40 Limited, D FA★ 70-200/2.8, D FA 28-105, and D FA★ 50/1.4 were all still made after he left, and even the FA 31/1.8 Limited doesn't have his name on it like the 43 and 77 do.
I don't find 16-85, 20-40 and 28-105 are something special...Slow middle class lenses. DFA*70-200/2.8 and DFA*50/1.4 are the same level as the the best lenses of other brands. Classical aperture speed and focal length.
01-04-2019, 03:36 AM   #102
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Looks like the 11-18 and the GR iii are back on the roadmap - call them unfinished and present as new release soon. That puts back other products. Further delay of DFA85 puts a hold on large aperture glass in favor of tele zooms. Quite a change of perspective, but good to know that Pentax listens to their customer base.
Anniversary surprise - wild guess - a collapsible or modular tele lens/zoom to bring native ff tele coverage to K1.
01-04-2019, 03:41 AM - 1 Like   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Reed Quote
D. DFA70-200/2.8 is also better than any of its competitors to date. .
The DFA 70-200mm suffers from focus breathing. Canon and the new Nikon don't have this problem. What exactly is your basis for thinking the Pentax zoom is better?
01-04-2019, 03:41 AM - 3 Likes   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
Top class in which world? It does not even have fast ring ultrasonic motor.. motor that was used on canon top lenses since 1990 and is professional standard for such lenses. Nikon has it, Sony has it, Sigma has it, Tamron has it.. Pentax does not. Oh yes.. top class.. sure. Get that lens, put it on K1 and go do some sport stuff. Then put 70-200/2.8 IS USM II on 5DmkIV and compare.
DFA*70-200/2.8 has classical real ring-type ultrasonic motor. The speed of lens also depends on camera's hardware and software.
Here is the gap and compromise...More expensive "stuffing" = better speed.
The problem will be to sell such expensive camera from Pentax.
AF-S of Pentax is the same as other brands for a long time already. AF-C needs more power of hardware and better software.
01-04-2019, 03:47 AM - 3 Likes   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Clear. I have the DFA15-30, if the 11-18 was f4 covering the K1 image circle, I'd immediately sell the 15-30 and buy the 11-18 (f4). Designing lenses dedicated to only one format doesn't leverage dev. costs.
The rumor was that the 11-18 was based on a Tokina design, but tweaked by Pentax. The goal is to fill out the DA * line up with a wide angle zoom that is sealed. Making it full frame would increase the size to very close to the 15-30's size, even if it was only f4.

QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
So.. they gave 645 MF market to Fuji with no new camera expected in next few years and no lenses introduced in last few years.

Q system is dead for sure.

FF system is laughable if compared to any other current FF system because important FF lenses like 12-24, 20/1.4, 24/1.4, 28/1.4, 35/1.4, 85/1.4, 135/1.8 etc are still missing, while competitors do offer them and in most cases customers even have choice between own or 3rd party options. Not to mention telephoto lenses or special lenses like tilt-shift.

And it looks like they even left the APS-C market to competitors now.. 11-18/2.8 might be ok, but we still have same old DA* line since 10mpix camera era and no advanced body since K3..

And while we can read that xx or yy is under development again and again, competitors are fielding new cameras and lenses every year. No suprise, that Pentax now has lost 3rd party AF lens support and that most camera shops removed Pentax from portfolio completely.

They can eat that GRIII.. that won't save them.

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 01:58 AM ----------




645Z is 2014 camera... for comparison Fuji in last 2 years prepared GFX50S and GFX50R

HD DFA645 35/3.5 is 2015 lens.. for comparison Fuji since that time released 7 GF lenses..


As a MF customer all I can see is dying Pentax 645 system and fast growing Fuji GF645 system with modern lenses. Guess where customers go...

---------- Post added 04-01-19 at 02:09 AM ----------




FF11-18/2.8 lens would be in $4000+ range. Forget that APS-C users would buy such thing in any interesting numbers.
For comparison Canon 11-24/4 cost more than $2500 and you want 11mm wide F2.8 fullframe zoom lens... that would be monster. Big, heavy and horribly expensive.


I'd rather see FF 24/1.4 or FF24/1.8 and FF 35/1.4 lenses that are good both for FF and APS-C while having at least somewhat affordable price.
And also some UWA FF lens like FF12-24/4 again both usable for FF and APS-C while keeping price that some can afford.

Also some cheap small FF 70-300/4-6.3 is missing. We have several different DA55-300 lenses but none of them fully compatible with FF cameras. This only shows how chaotic that FF project is.
Even with current lenses available, the K-1 is a very nice camera for still photography. You are always way to hyperbolic when you show up on threads. Yes, mirrorless offers some things that SLRs don't, but not everyone needs those things. The K-1 isn't a sports camera (although you can shoot sports with it). It doesn't shoot 12 fps or have 4K video. But it does auto focus, it does shoot high quality still images that are better than the majority of the competition offers.

As far as the way forward, I think they have plenty to do and expect them to release a couple of cameras next year, probably with a new version of PRIME, but I suppose we'll see.
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