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01-08-2019, 06:05 PM - 1 Like   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Because you want to give a new lens five years or more to recover its development and production costs, they would have cancelled the DA*11-18 if there were to be no more APS-C cameras.

Management with their financial modelling might decide that as a premium niche brand, a high end camera might be green lighted, but not entry level ones. The bean counters might say yes to a K-3 successor, and no to a K-70 one.

Sony seem to have already implemented this. It's luxury APS-C or full frame, for them.

Companies are *following* Pentax in offering larger formats, trading sales volume for more profit on each sale, and may or may not be able to carry it off. Panasonic are having to offer full frame, admitting m43 is not doing it for them, and Fuji are having to offer 645, admitting APS-C isn't enough.
And there is nothing wrong with having multiple systems. Pentax has a fully developed APS-C system so it's really just a matter of pushing a new body or two out every 24 months. It could use some fast primes if you want to get picky, but the flip side is it has the pancake limiteds which are small and fit in nicely with the more compact nature of the DA system. So in reality, it's missing nothing as Pentax chose to go a certain route with the system.

Basically what I'm saying is they don't need to cut the DA system to let the FA system flourish because the DA system is a mature system. Once that 11-18 comes out, they'll have WR lenses from 11-560mm. And pro level glass in that range as well. Obviously some of those lenses probably could use a refresh, but few of them are dogs.

Ricoh unfortunately doesn't want to make the investment Panasonic and Fuji made. That's what it comes down to. Fuji started out with nothing and built a really good system in a few years. Now they have two really good systems. You have to spend money to make money. I think Ricoh is happy to be a niche camera company that breaks even on its investment, whereas, Fuji is looking to be a market leader.



01-08-2019, 06:10 PM - 1 Like   #332
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If I were Pentax I would only be developing full frame lenses right now, The next F2.8 lens I am ready to purchase is ff, which means it also is very usable on APS-C. If that is what they are doing it is smart move, in my opinion....But since I am use to heavy lenses it does not concern me what it weighs....I only want lenses that take great images (a giagantic task with me behind the camera) reguardless of the weight. On a side note I finially got a like on a photo from Normhead.That may not happen again but I do respect the opinions of the longtime PF members, they have much to offer to the next generation of Pentax users....so pay attention!
01-08-2019, 06:11 PM - 4 Likes   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mountain Vision Quote
. I think Ricoh is happy to be a niche camera company that breaks even on its investment, whereas, Fuji is looking to be a market leader.
That can end in tears, because the conventional wisdom is that in a declining market, you don't decide to lose money to acquire marketshare.

Fuji would be wise at board level to allocate money away from say, 4 percent return consumer cameras to 8 percent on industrial or medical products.

The imaging divisions of Fuji and Panasonic must be acknowledging that to charge larger amounts of money, it can't be for m43 or APS-C, it has to be Bigger and Better.

This is what Canon and Nikon are doing too, with larger problems because they're market leaders not niche players.

I've seen it reported that Canon will develop no further EF lenses next year while they prioritize the RF FF mount which they launched with just three lenses, so it shows that even the biggest companies tear up roadmaps because of commercial realities, Ricoh is no different.

Last edited by clackers; 01-08-2019 at 06:23 PM.
01-08-2019, 06:31 PM   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by stihlmania Quote
If I were Pentax I would only be developing full frame lenses right now,
I guess that could work as long s they develop not only f1.4 versions.. aps-c users are not use to be charged with a lot of money for their lenses + most want to keep the size relatively small, and the f1.4 versions are expensive and big.. so releasing f1.8 versions and f4 versions of primes and zooms can keep both markets "happy" for a while...

01-08-2019, 07:06 PM - 2 Likes   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
.

I've seen it reported that Canon will develop no further EF lenses next year while they prioritize the RF FF mount which they launched with just three lenses, so it shows that even the biggest companies tear up roadmaps because of commercial realities, Ricoh is no different.
Have you ever looked at the Canon EF catalog? It is quite impressive.

The consensus among Canon photographers is that aside from a few lenses needing a refresh, the EF catalog is perfectly adequate and there are enough used EF lenses in existence to sustain a generation of photographers.







01-08-2019, 07:51 PM - 3 Likes   #336
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Oddly enough I think the entire market is saturated with unbelievably great camera bodies and lenses. I have friends who bought D500 Nikons, and it would be a major change that would move them into another body. One has the D810 and D500, with a collection of lenses. She likely won't buy a camera body for half a decade.

I follow some youtube vlogs, wildlife and landscape photography. Hardware is always a subcurrent, many times in response to questions more than anything else. I'm seeing that lens investment is THE factor driving purchases. Sure the Canon dual pixel is very cool, but that means my 600 f4 etc. etc. needs replacing. Not very many people have enough cash to swap systems regularly.

Both Nikon and Canon are trying to get people to swap lens mounts right now. If they have the pockets and patience to last a decade, they may get somewhere, but even the mirrorless offerings are used in the context of lens collections. And they all have serious and crippling shortcomings compared to the very good DSLR's that these people are using.

The 645 shutter is good for 100,000 shots. This isn't wildlife shooting where you take a thousand shots in a session. These last years, many years. There will be a replacement when Ricoh figures that the users are ready for an upgrade.

Even the Fuji GFX medium format. That requires serious cash to even consider. One vlogger really liked it but couldn't justify the cost. The 645 crowd had lenses already, and were willing to upgrade parts of their systems. We will see if the GFX is still around in a few years. It seems pretty nice, but it is a small market and a very expensive offering.

In this conversation never forget that the price of a K1 plus some decent lenses is a one in a lifetime purchase for 95% of the people spending the money.

I have often thought that I'm one of Ricoh's customers; they seem to know what I want. The K1 was a stretch price wise, no regrets at all. The 150-450 is an excellent lens. I'm considering one of the shorter zooms for landscape. I dug out my K5 because of the stabilized video for an attempt at vlogging, using the cheap 18-45 kit zoom. Works quite well, the quality is quite nice.

So I expect Ricoh to read my mind and give me what I want. The 70-200 would be very compelling. A Q with very good autofocus and nice video, a vlogging special, would be ordered very quickly. I have a Q and it lacks a mic port and stabilization, but it is a jewel of a concept. If it worked as well as the M50 or similar it would become very attractive for that purpose. I won't be ugrading the K1, the Mark II upgrade made it perfect for me, although some nice firmware goodies would make it a bit better, but I'm expecting to get a couple years out of it.

The K1 => Mark II hardware upgrade I hope becomes a standard operating principle at Ricoh. I have four perfectly good bodies here, I really don't want another one if I can avoid it.

I think the APSC market is a dead end, unfortunately. They could make a cheaper D500 but I don't think Nikon has done as well as they expected. Both Canon and Nikon have seemingly abandoned their excellent sport apsc lines probably because they weren't making a return. Maybe Ricoh will see a niche there when the big guys don't replenish the incredible inventory of unsold APSC bodies floating around. I'm seeing D7000's for sale at retail in my small town.

I get the impression the D850 is like a K5II => K3 upgrade; a few more goodies but slightly decreased IQ. Again, those are expensive bodies. I'm seeing the D850 replacing aging D5's.

It is a brutal market. The technology improvements aren't driving automatic upgrades like they did a decade ago.

Last edited by derekkite; 01-08-2019 at 07:59 PM.
01-08-2019, 08:30 PM - 2 Likes   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Oddly enough I think the entire market is saturated with unbelievably great camera bodies and lenses. .

I think the APSC market is a dead end, unfortunately. Maybe Ricoh will see a niche there when the big guys don't replenish the incredible inventory of unsold APSC bodies floating around. I'm seeing D7000's for sale at retail in my small town.

I get the impression the D850 is like a K5II => K3 upgrade; a few more goodies but slightly decreased IQ. Again, those are expensive bodies. I'm seeing the D850 replacing aging D5's.

o.
I think comparing people shooting Pentax to Nikon and Canon is a bad way to look at things. If everyone was your typical Nikon and Canon shooter there would only be two brands and Pentax would be gone. This discussion has gone on for a while, dating back to at least the K10D, but no doubt longer than that.

There are plenty of folks on this forum who either have no interest in the K-1 or who actually had a K-1 and sold it and got a KP or who sold it and went mirrorless. There are also a lot of folks who just like their DA lenses and are choosing to use two systems. Putting a DA 21 on a K-1 doesn't quite do it for me. But I do like my FA 24 f/2 on the K-1 more than I do on the K-5IIs.

I firmly believe if Pentax releases a K-3 level APS-C body sometime in the near future when it actually matters (not so long after that no one cares, seeing as folks have been screaming for an upgrade for at least a year) I believe it will sell.

Pentax was never going head to head with Nikon and Canon so if there are unsold 7D or D7000s or whatever it doesn't mean that there would he thousands of unsold K-3IIIs.

Personally, if the KP had a bigger buffer I'd probably have bought it over a K-1. But since it wasn't exactly what I wanted, I decided to take my FA lenses for a spin at their native focal length and DOF for only slightly more than a KP could be purchased for. In some ways Pentax gave a lot of us what we wanted, a camera to use our legacy lenses on. Other than the Irix 15mm I've invested nothing in new glass for the K-1. I'm just enjoying using my old full frame glass in its native format again.



01-08-2019, 08:33 PM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I guess that could work as long s they develop not only f1.4 versions.. aps-c users are not use to be charged with a lot of money for their lenses + most want to keep the size relatively small, and the f1.4 versions are expensive and big.. so releasing f1.8 versions and f4 versions of primes and zooms can keep both markets "happy" for a while...
While I agree with you on APS-C can be smaller and lighter and less expensive, the bottom line for any company has to be survival. The market is in such a state of flux that no one is certain of what will survive and what will not.. Do you use older Pentax lenses? M or A? Or screw mount? All full frame, where the market is heading...ASP-C cameras can use them all, which is my main point....become profitable then add ASP-C to the lens lineup, otherwise I will become a Nikon user when my SMC A * 400 needs repair, which almost no one can do, a few claim they can repair this lens but the fact that so few were made and no repair parts are available does not ease my concerns about anyone being able to do ANY repairs on this lens But give Asashi Opitical some credit, they made a superb lens back then that few could afford except those who made a living selling photographs. That was the reason they even made the lens. Ricoh (Pentax) will not make an auto focus replacement for my lens, even if the size is popular with sport photographers and for wildlife , until they can make a profit from the camera line and lenses. Focus on ff lenses is what I would do, but what do I know about the future?

---------- Post added 01-08-19 at 09:41 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
It's amazing how bitter people can be.

---------- Post added 01-07-19 at 11:23 PM ----------



You'll be excited for the future then with a k3-III. AF-C on my KP is 6 out 7 in focus.
I am awaiting any Ricoh, Pentax direct postings, the rumor mill makes me sleepy.....
01-09-2019, 12:10 AM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
If this is the case then you are missing out on Pentax's best APS-C lenses.
Am not. I told you - LTDs are a bit on the slow side form my taste and speaking from a strictly optical POV - DAs are superior (not that it counts much to me but still...)

---------- Post added 01-09-19 at 08:23 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Sony seem to have already implemented this. It's luxury APS-C or full frame, for them.
If we follow the rumors - Sony is releasing new entry level APS-C cameras (5xxx line) + some lenses
01-09-2019, 12:31 AM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Oddly enough I think the entire market is saturated with unbelievably great camera bodies and lenses.
I didn't upgrade my K-1. I had bought a second-hand KP in the marketplace, so essentially I have a more modern High ISO Accelerator Chip camera than the K-1II, and a classic FF field camera. But I've bought a fair amount of new lenses for both cameras now and Ricoh likely understands the cameras usually beget lens purchases.
01-09-2019, 12:45 AM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mountain Vision Quote
ut they always had a deep "FX" (as they call it) legacy lens lineup and upgrade path to full frame for quite some time.
This was true to any company that had 35mm film SLRs. It is just that Nikon was strongly defending their DX line and told their users DX is the future of digital and they have no plans on releasing FX digital bodies (or lenses). But for various reasons (Canon) they just ended the production of DX glass and this is why I felt "cheated" by Nikon. Cause I dont think releasing new crop bodies only is a dedication to crop format... its the lenses that count for me.
Pentax stuck more to their crop line but well see what the future brings....
01-09-2019, 02:46 AM - 2 Likes   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by Trickortreat Quote
Am not. I told you - LTDs are a bit on the slow side form my taste and speaking from a strictly optical POV - DAs are superior (not that it counts much to me but still...)

---------- Post added 01-09-19 at 08:23 AM ----------


If we follow the rumors - Sony is releasing new entry level APS-C cameras (5xxx line) + some lenses
Firstly, the entry level is 3000 series.

Secondly, the pictures and specs of a mid level 5300 have been dismissed by thenewcamera.com site as hoaxes.

Please, Trickortreat, post quality info here that respects the intellect of your peers, save repeating of hoaxes for some thread in DPR, they'll cheer and applaud!

Last edited by clackers; 01-09-2019 at 03:05 AM.
01-09-2019, 03:02 AM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mountain Vision Quote
Have you ever looked at the Canon EF catalog? It is quite impressive.

The consensus among Canon photographers is that aside from a few lenses needing a refresh, the EF catalog is perfectly adequate and there are enough used EF lenses in existence to sustain a generation of photographers.
I own and use a range of Canon lenses (including EF) that cover between 28mm and 300mm, Mountain Vision, so, the answer is yes. Some of them are very good, too.

And the K mount catalogue is extensive, including WR, in-lens motors covering between 15mm and 560mm, if you want to view it that way.

But EF mount and K mount owners will always want more, and there's no way that either they or Canon and Ricoh would agree with you and say their work is done.

Last edited by clackers; 01-09-2019 at 03:11 AM.
01-09-2019, 03:03 AM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Firstly, the entry level is 3000 series.Secondly, the pictures and specs of a mid level 5300 have been dismissed by thenewcamera.com site as hoaxes.Please, Trickortreat, post quality info here that respects the intellect of your peers, save repeating of hoaxes for some thread in DPR!
Wow, personal attacks hold it there Bob
Ok, Sony seems to have abandoned 3xxx line and the new entry level would probably be 5xxx line, 6xxx is midrange and 7xxx is top of the line.
I had a disclaimer *If we follow the rumors*.
And as I see people here get lit by rumors ALOT, so why not post rumors? Be they false or not, time will tell...
01-09-2019, 03:16 AM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mountain Vision Quote
Then cancel the 11-18. Don't release a DA* lens without a suitable camera to mount it on. I think releasing the 11-18 says, here's a professional wide angle, we are committed to the DA ecosystem. Not releasing a professional body to go with it says, something entirely different.
I'm not a business analyst, but it seems likely to me that Ricoh will release a high-performance APS-C body in the not too distant future.

I'd say better profit is to be made with larger formats but if a K-3 successor can impress with a high fps specification, perhaps improved AF-C performance, and some cool feature (will Ricoh every release a hybrid viewfinder?) then it could have a unique selling proposition and justify a price tag that will allow Ricoh to make money in this segment.
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