Nippon Camera Ricoh/Pentax 2019 Interview

Rico · 01-10-2019, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

You expressed my reasoning very well. The lenses as they are differentiate Pentax.

I’m quite certain your lenses would be fine lenses, but they wouldn’t be the Princesses. They would be larger, they would render differently - and they would be . . . Modern.

They need to be modern for digital. They will not just render differently they will render better with smoother bokeh with 9 rounded blades. They don't need to be any larger arguably they could be smaller as there is no need for aperture rings.

**monochrome** · 01-10-2019, 09:34 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Rico

They need to be modern for digital. They will not just render differently they will render better with smoother bokeh with 9 rounded blades. They don't need to be any larger arguably they could be smaller as there is no need for aperture rings.

And that would all be different. Different /= Better.

repaap · 01-11-2019, 12:07 AM

I’m not sure actually if updating FA limiteds would be good idea or not. Perhaps they have already looked how DA limiteds update ->HD versions went? Instead with their resourses making these DFA* lenses which were missing and getting them sold sounds like a good business plan. Now I would not mind modernised FA 77. Because of PF problem and weather sealing, and DC motor. But I’m not sure if that would be enough for me to pay 700-1000 € or even more to update mine. Espesially if there was modern 85 to choose from. They might have to change a lot to get rid of problems with 77, 43 and 31. And also could lose pixie dust while doing it..starbursts for example?

About that modern 28/2 lens with AF and sealing. I’m not saying that it should not be done. Also nice smallinsh 20/4 would be welcome.

Trickortreat · 01-11-2019, 12:37 AM

When they fill the FA roadmap it would be nice to update those DA primes with motors and decouple the focusing ring while in AF mode. It is really awkward to hold a Pentax body and a small prime. I need to hold it like a P&S if i dont want fingers on the focusing ring or in front of my lens :/
Another nice thing (if they do update their crp line with motors) would be to make an entry level without the screw drive. That would bring the weight down a fairly bit and would make a perfect body to use with small light primes.

superdave · 01-11-2019, 01:11 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Are you certain that's definitely focus accuracy at fault? I notice the shutter time on your Pentax shot is *much* longer than the Canon shot... 1/250s vs 1/640s... I don't know how good your holding technique is, but with a 300mm lens on APS-C, personally I'd be picking a shutter speed considerably faster than 1/250s. Which isn't to say it can't be done, especially with stabilisation... But I'd pick a faster speed. 1/250s is well below the reciprocal rule once you take crop factor into account, whereas 1/640s on FF with a 400mm lens is comfortably above the rule... and then there's the pixel density, which again has relevance to what I've just mentioned.

Originally posted by clackers

Dave, those shutter speeds!

I shoot birds and sport all the time side by side with Canon and Nikon shooters, our pictures look the same.
Why?

Sure 1/250s is a little to slow but I was on a monopod with stabilization enabled and I have the same behavior with 1/500s, so I don't think shutter speed is the problem here. And it do not look like motion blur. From my experience, I get better photos when using slower shutter speed and lower ISO than the opposite. I am afraid that 1600 ISO and 1/250 or 1/320 with -0.7EV are typical settings for shooting birds in my backyard in winter...

biz-engineer · 01-11-2019, 01:48 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by superdave

In regards to the Pentax 150-450mm, I read somewhere that the focus is really slow but if focus is really more precise than DA300 that would be the way to go... I dream of DA300 mkII with a top notch AF motor!... but I know it is just a dream...

Strictly optically, my DA*300 was slightly better than the DFA150-450 (some people will say otherwise, but it's not true because the DA*300 can be stopped down 1 stop when the DFA150-450 is still wide open at the same f5.6 aperture and 300mm FL). The DFA150-450 is both faster to focus and more precise with focus (very repeatable focus position, including the focus memory function). Some mechanical play in the AF cogs system of the DA*300 makes focus a hit and miss, not maxing out the optics of the DA*300. The DA*300 also takes camera vibration (mirror/shutter), sitting the K3 and DA*300 into a large bean back significantly improve image sharpness: the first time I compared image from my K3/DA*300 on tripod vs in beanbag, my reaction was "WOW". The DFA150-450 is doesn't get much vibration, because it's a heavier lens, and the optical is different I suppose.

phoebus · 01-11-2019, 02:03 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Rico

...They don't need to be any larger arguably they could be smaller as there is no need for aperture rings.

Do you have the FA77??

It can not get smaller - it is brim full of glass. How they made it with 49mm filter thread is remarkable. To update it with focus motor and remove the longitudinal CA would surely make it bigger, not smaller. The aperture ring is at the narrow end of the light path, there's no size saving from just removing it.

I would love a set of DFA Ltds with ring SDM, electronic aperture and AW build. Realistically I know that is unlikely to be any time soon.

In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy the unique rendering of this beautiful jewel of a lens and accept its short-comings.

altopiet · 01-11-2019, 02:19 AM

Originally posted by Trickortreat

When they fill the FA roadmap it would be nice to update those DA primes with motors and decouple the focusing ring while in AF mode. It is really awkward to hold a Pentax body and a small prime. I need to hold it like a P&S if i dont want fingers on the focusing ring or in front of my lens :/
Another nice thing (if they do update their crp line with motors) would be to make an entry level without the screw drive. That would bring the weight down a fairly bit and would make a perfect body to use with small light primes.

Is it realistic to expect them to come out with more DA lenses, or more realistic to expect more FF lenses, which can also be used on APSC, especially considering their limited resources?

Mistral75 · 01-11-2019, 02:56 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Rico

(...) If you take the DA21 LTD as an example which is clearly modelled on the M20 (...)

Er... no. Apart from being retrofocus, the designs of these two lenses don't have much in common.

DA 21mm f/3.2 AL Limited.

smc Pentax-M 20mm f/4.

Source of the diagram above: Pentax Ultra-Wide Prime Lenses | The K-Mount Page

Trickortreat · 01-11-2019, 03:51 AM

Originally posted by altopiet

Is it realistic to expect them to come out with more DA lenses, or more realistic to expect more FF lenses, which can also be used on APSC, especially considering their limited resources?

Just updated DAs with motors and decoupled focusing ring. But if it were up to me - I wouldnt care about any FF lenses. Or any FF stuff. Didnt bought into Pentax for FF. Would have stayed with Nikon if I wanted FF...

**Rondec** · 01-11-2019, 04:10 AM - **3 Likes**

I'm not sure how we got down the rabbit hole of Pentax re-doing existing lenses. To me, they have a lot of things to do before that.

1. Fill out existing DFA * lens line up. This currently has listed a 20-ishmm, 35mm f1.4, and 85mm f1.4 primes along with a DFA 70-200 f4, fish eye zoom, 70-300 variable aperture full frame zoom.
2. Release a K-3 II sequel. This is probably the thing that Pentaxians have been wanting the most. Basically a camera that has a similar feature set to the KP, but has dual card slots, even better tracking auto focus, faster frame rate, and deeper buffer. And whatever other things Pentax would decide to throw in.
3. DA *11-16. This should be coming out some time 2019.
4. Up dated medium format camera body. This really feels like the year that Pentax has to make a decision if they are going to continue to supporting medium format. The 645z is getting long in the tooth and there are companies like Fuji that are working hard to push into that market. Unless they release something new next year, I'm not sure they can keep going in that market.
5. Up dated K-1 II. The K-1 II is a place holder. I doubt anything will happen on this soon, but the K-1 series is based on the D800's sensor meaning that it was relatively old at time of release and certainly Pentax could get something newer that has faster frame rates when they are ready.

There are probably a bunch of other things I have not thought of that they should be doing as well. Not sure about the K70. Not sure about updating the DA * zooms. All of those things probably should be done too. If there is a problem it is that Pentax has been so slow to release new stuff that things are piling up.

I'm still generally optimistic, but certainly doing anything to the DA limited or FA limited line ups seems unlikely right now.

Mistral75 · 01-11-2019, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

(...)
3. DA *11-16. This should be coming out some time next year.
(...)

Kunzite · 01-11-2019, 04:24 AM - **1 Like**

The DA* 11-16mm appears as planned for the 2019, according to the (soon to be updated) June 2018 roadmap.

---------- Post added 11-01-19 at 01:29 PM ----------

Speculating beyond available information is a bit pointless, especially now - so close to CP+.
It makes little sense to update the DA*s before the other lenses from the roadmap. Or it makes a lot of sense to update some of the DA*s, if for example they're preparing a new APS-C flagship and don't want it paired with the DA* 16-50 and 50-135.
It makes little sense to launch a 50mm as the first D FA* prime. It makes a lot of sense to launch a 50mm as the first D FA* prime, as that was the most sought after lens.
Yep, unfortunately there's no clear cut answer, no obvious "best line" to follow.

biz-engineer · 01-11-2019, 04:41 AM

Working on the Q would be a mistake, sensor too small by today's standards. Given how fast C, N are cranking up their MILC, Pentax better make smart choices is their want their K mount to survive. In about two years from now, the new mounts will have a nice lens lineup, and if at the time Pentax isn't competitive, they'll lose a lot of customers. Working on new 645, it's a special segment, but high margin, give good lenses are provided there is money to be made. AF module upgrade would do good to all Pentax lines. My personal position is that I will age my K1/II system, and then consider switching to medium format once medium format is features with PDAF. I could switch to a 645z, but I can hardly find a reason to do so due to lack of activity from Pentax. Currently the only model I'm looking at is the GFX50s but CDAF is holding me back, still having a couple of years to save money and then I'll be ready for MF (MF=Medium Format, not Manual Focus :-) ).

For the K mount K1, a fast 20mm is completely missing in the lineup especially when we consider that the K1 is a landscape and astro camera, it doesn't make sense for Ricoh not to offer a fast 20mm-24mm prime for the K1 (astro kit). And since people's portraits is also a kind of photography where the K1 works well, it's equally a fail for Ricoh not to offer a fast 85 prime. They've make the DFA*50, but it clearly not the lens that should have come first.

Kunzite · 01-11-2019, 04:59 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

For the K mount K1, a fast 20mm is completely missing in the lineup especially when we consider that the K1 is a landscape and astro camera, it doesn't make sense for Ricoh not to offer a fast 20mm-24mm prime for the K1 (astro kit). And since people's portraits is also a kind of photography where the K1 works well, it's equally a fail for Ricoh not to offer a fast 85 prime. They've make the DFA*50, but it clearly not the lens that should have come first.

The roadmap contains a D FA* 85mm f/1.4 and an ultra wide.
As for the D FA* 50mm... does "most sought after" ring a bell?

01-11-2019, 01:11 AM	#485
superdave Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 228	Originally posted by BigMackCam Are you certain that's definitely focus accuracy at fault? I notice the shutter time on your Pentax shot is much longer than the Canon shot... 1/250s vs 1/640s... I don't know how good your holding technique is, but with a 300mm lens on APS-C, personally I'd be picking a shutter speed considerably faster than 1/250s. Which isn't to say it can't be done, especially with stabilisation... But I'd pick a faster speed. 1/250s is well below the reciprocal rule once you take crop factor into account, whereas 1/640s on FF with a 400mm lens is comfortably above the rule... and then there's the pixel density, which again has relevance to what I've just mentioned. Originally posted by clackers Dave, those shutter speeds! I shoot birds and sport all the time side by side with Canon and Nikon shooters, our pictures look the same. Why? Sure 1/250s is a little to slow but I was on a monopod with stabilization enabled and I have the same behavior with 1/500s, so I don't think shutter speed is the problem here. And it do not look like motion blur. From my experience, I get better photos when using slower shutter speed and lower ISO than the opposite. I am afraid that 1600 ISO and 1/250 or 1/320 with -0.7EV are typical settings for shooting birds in my backyard in winter... Last edited by superdave; 01-11-2019 at 01:20 AM.

01-11-2019, 04:10 AM - 3 Likes	#491
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	I'm not sure how we got down the rabbit hole of Pentax re-doing existing lenses. To me, they have a lot of things to do before that. 1. Fill out existing DFA * lens line up. This currently has listed a 20-ishmm, 35mm f1.4, and 85mm f1.4 primes along with a DFA 70-200 f4, fish eye zoom, 70-300 variable aperture full frame zoom. 2. Release a K-3 II sequel. This is probably the thing that Pentaxians have been wanting the most. Basically a camera that has a similar feature set to the KP, but has dual card slots, even better tracking auto focus, faster frame rate, and deeper buffer. And whatever other things Pentax would decide to throw in. 3. DA 11-16. This should be coming out some time 2019. 4. Up dated medium format camera body. This really feels like the year that Pentax has to make a decision if they are going to continue to supporting medium format. The 645z is getting long in the tooth and there are companies like Fuji that are working hard to push into that market. Unless they release something new next year, I'm not sure they can keep going in that market. 5. Up dated K-1 II. The K-1 II is a place holder. I doubt anything will happen on this soon, but the K-1 series is based on the D800's sensor meaning that it was relatively old at time of release and certainly Pentax could get something newer that has faster frame rates when they are ready. There are probably a bunch of other things I have not thought of that they should be doing as well. Not sure about the K70. Not sure about updating the DA zooms. All of those things probably should be done too. If there is a problem it is that Pentax has been so slow to release new stuff that things are piling up. I'm still generally optimistic, but certainly doing anything to the DA limited or FA limited line ups seems unlikely right now. Last edited by Rondec; 01-11-2019 at 07:14 AM.

01-11-2019, 04:41 AM	#494
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Working on the Q would be a mistake, sensor too small by today's standards. Given how fast C, N are cranking up their MILC, Pentax better make smart choices is their want their K mount to survive. In about two years from now, the new mounts will have a nice lens lineup, and if at the time Pentax isn't competitive, they'll lose a lot of customers. Working on new 645, it's a special segment, but high margin, give good lenses are provided there is money to be made. AF module upgrade would do good to all Pentax lines. My personal position is that I will age my K1/II system, and then consider switching to medium format once medium format is features with PDAF. I could switch to a 645z, but I can hardly find a reason to do so due to lack of activity from Pentax. Currently the only model I'm looking at is the GFX50s but CDAF is holding me back, still having a couple of years to save money and then I'll be ready for MF (MF=Medium Format, not Manual Focus :-) ). For the K mount K1, a fast 20mm is completely missing in the lineup especially when we consider that the K1 is a landscape and astro camera, it doesn't make sense for Ricoh not to offer a fast 20mm-24mm prime for the K1 (astro kit). And since people's portraits is also a kind of photography where the K1 works well, it's equally a fail for Ricoh not to offer a fast 85 prime. They've make the DFA50, but it clearly not the lens that should have come first. Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-11-2019 at 04:54 AM.*

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Pentax 100 YEARS anniversary 2019!	SunnyG.	Pentax DSLR Discussion	66	10-19-2019 04:35 AM
Ricoh Imaging Will Not Be Exhibiting At WPPI 2019 Conference & Expo	Kelvin 5500	Photographic Industry and Professionals	15	12-28-2018 11:05 PM
Nippon Camera Article about FA lenses	revdocjim	Pentax Medium Format	10	06-10-2014 01:59 PM
Nippon Kogaku (Nikon) Micro-Nikkor Auto 1:3.5 f=55mm vs. SMC Pentax-M 1:1.7 50mm	carpents	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	3	06-23-2007 07:22 PM

01-10-2019, 09:24 PM	#481
Rico Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,205	Originally posted by monochrome You expressed my reasoning very well. The lenses as they are differentiate Pentax. I’m quite certain your lenses would be fine lenses, but they wouldn’t be the Princesses. They would be larger, they would render differently - and they would be . . . Modern. They need to be modern for digital. They will not just render differently they will render better with smoother bokeh with 9 rounded blades. They don't need to be any larger arguably they could be smaller as there is no need for aperture rings.

01-10-2019, 09:34 PM - 1 Like	#482
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Rico They need to be modern for digital. They will not just render differently they will render better with smoother bokeh with 9 rounded blades. They don't need to be any larger arguably they could be smaller as there is no need for aperture rings. And that would all be different. Different /= Better.

01-11-2019, 12:07 AM	#483
repaap Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2010 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,242	I’m not sure actually if updating FA limiteds would be good idea or not. Perhaps they have already looked how DA limiteds update ->HD versions went? Instead with their resourses making these DFA* lenses which were missing and getting them sold sounds like a good business plan. Now I would not mind modernised FA 77. Because of PF problem and weather sealing, and DC motor. But I’m not sure if that would be enough for me to pay 700-1000 € or even more to update mine. Espesially if there was modern 85 to choose from. They might have to change a lot to get rid of problems with 77, 43 and 31. And also could lose pixie dust while doing it..starbursts for example? About that modern 28/2 lens with AF and sealing. I’m not saying that it should not be done. Also nice smallinsh 20/4 would be welcome.

01-11-2019, 12:37 AM	#484
Trickortreat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 561	When they fill the FA roadmap it would be nice to update those DA primes with motors and decouple the focusing ring while in AF mode. It is really awkward to hold a Pentax body and a small prime. I need to hold it like a P&S if i dont want fingers on the focusing ring or in front of my lens :/ Another nice thing (if they do update their crp line with motors) would be to make an entry level without the screw drive. That would bring the weight down a fairly bit and would make a perfect body to use with small light primes.

01-11-2019, 01:48 AM - 1 Like	#486
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by superdave In regards to the Pentax 150-450mm, I read somewhere that the focus is really slow but if focus is really more precise than DA300 that would be the way to go... I dream of DA300 mkII with a top notch AF motor!... but I know it is just a dream... Strictly optically, my DA300 was slightly better than the DFA150-450 (some people will say otherwise, but it's not true because the DA300 can be stopped down 1 stop when the DFA150-450 is still wide open at the same f5.6 aperture and 300mm FL). The DFA150-450 is both faster to focus and more precise with focus (very repeatable focus position, including the focus memory function). Some mechanical play in the AF cogs system of the DA300 makes focus a hit and miss, not maxing out the optics of the DA300. The DA300 also takes camera vibration (mirror/shutter), sitting the K3 and DA300 into a large bean back significantly improve image sharpness: the first time I compared image from my K3/DA*300 on tripod vs in beanbag, my reaction was "WOW". The DFA150-450 is doesn't get much vibration, because it's a heavier lens, and the optical is different I suppose.

01-11-2019, 02:03 AM - 3 Likes	#487
phoebus Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Buckinghamshire (UK) / Morbihan (FR) Photos: Gallery Posts: 470	Originally posted by Rico ...They don't need to be any larger arguably they could be smaller as there is no need for aperture rings. Do you have the FA77?? It can not get smaller - it is brim full of glass. How they made it with 49mm filter thread is remarkable. To update it with focus motor and remove the longitudinal CA would surely make it bigger, not smaller. The aperture ring is at the narrow end of the light path, there's no size saving from just removing it. I would love a set of DFA Ltds with ring SDM, electronic aperture and AW build. Realistically I know that is unlikely to be any time soon. In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy the unique rendering of this beautiful jewel of a lens and accept its short-comings.

01-11-2019, 02:19 AM	#488
altopiet Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: The Gem of the Karoo, South Africa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,307	Originally posted by Trickortreat When they fill the FA roadmap it would be nice to update those DA primes with motors and decouple the focusing ring while in AF mode. It is really awkward to hold a Pentax body and a small prime. I need to hold it like a P&S if i dont want fingers on the focusing ring or in front of my lens :/ Another nice thing (if they do update their crp line with motors) would be to make an entry level without the screw drive. That would bring the weight down a fairly bit and would make a perfect body to use with small light primes. Is it realistic to expect them to come out with more DA lenses, or more realistic to expect more FF lenses, which can also be used on APSC, especially considering their limited resources?

01-11-2019, 02:56 AM - 3 Likes	#489
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by Rico (...) If you take the DA21 LTD as an example which is clearly modelled on the M20 (...) Er... no. Apart from being retrofocus, the designs of these two lenses don't have much in common. DA 21mm f/3.2 AL Limited. smc Pentax-M 20mm f/4. Source of the diagram above: Pentax Ultra-Wide Prime Lenses \| The K-Mount Page

01-11-2019, 03:51 AM	#490
Trickortreat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 561	Originally posted by altopiet Is it realistic to expect them to come out with more DA lenses, or more realistic to expect more FF lenses, which can also be used on APSC, especially considering their limited resources? Just updated DAs with motors and decoupled focusing ring. But if it were up to me - I wouldnt care about any FF lenses. Or any FF stuff. Didnt bought into Pentax for FF. Would have stayed with Nikon if I wanted FF...

01-11-2019, 04:20 AM	#492
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by Rondec (...) 3. DA 11-16. This should be coming out some time next year*. (...)

01-11-2019, 04:24 AM - 1 Like	#493
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	The DA* 11-16mm appears as planned for the 2019, according to the (soon to be updated) June 2018 roadmap. ---------- Post added 11-01-19 at 01:29 PM ---------- Speculating beyond available information is a bit pointless, especially now - so close to CP+. It makes little sense to update the DAs before the other lenses from the roadmap. Or it makes a lot of sense to update some of the DAs, if for example they're preparing a new APS-C flagship and don't want it paired with the DA* 16-50 and 50-135. It makes little sense to launch a 50mm as the first D FA* prime. It makes a lot of sense to launch a 50mm as the first D FA* prime, as that was the most sought after lens. Yep, unfortunately there's no clear cut answer, no obvious "best line" to follow.

01-11-2019, 04:59 AM	#495
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by biz-engineer For the K mount K1, a fast 20mm is completely missing in the lineup especially when we consider that the K1 is a landscape and astro camera, it doesn't make sense for Ricoh not to offer a fast 20mm-24mm prime for the K1 (astro kit). And since people's portraits is also a kind of photography where the K1 works well, it's equally a fail for Ricoh not to offer a fast 85 prime. They've make the DFA50, but it clearly not the lens that should have come first. The roadmap contains a D FA 85mm f/1.4 and an ultra wide. As for the D FA* 50mm... does "most sought after" ring a bell?