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01-17-2019, 08:24 PM - 2 Likes   #721
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All this talk about size, with lots of people preferring the larger K-3ii and K-1 cameras, and relatively few of us preferring the smaller KP, goes to the heart of the arguments @punkrachmaninov and others keep making. I do not know what photographers in general prefer, but current users of Pentax cameras do not seem to prefer small cameras in general. I would expect Pentax to take those preferences into account when designing new equipment.

A few years ago, U.S. retailer J. C. Penney made a radical change in what they carried, lurching towards where the market seemed to be going - and also lurched towards bankruptcy. One of the business magazines described this as "they fired all their old customers before they hired any new ones". Pentax needs to avoid that kind of situation. Perhaps they could make cameras that would attract current users of Canon, Nikon, and Sony .... but they need someone to purchase their new products, and the easiest sale is to those who already purchase your product. Any major change needs to result in clear benefit. Personally, I don't see any benefit to their jettisoning K-mount, for example,

01-17-2019, 08:57 PM - 1 Like   #722
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
All this talk about size, with lots of people preferring the larger K-3ii and K-1 cameras, and relatively few of us preferring the smaller KP, goes to the heart of the arguments @punkrachmaninov and others keep making. I do not know what photographers in general prefer, but current users of Pentax cameras do not seem to prefer small cameras in general. I would expect Pentax to take those preferences into account when designing new equipment.

A few years ago, U.S. retailer J. C. Penney made a radical change in what they carried, lurching towards where the market seemed to be going - and also lurched towards bankruptcy. One of the business magazines described this as "they fired all their old customers before they hired any new ones". Pentax needs to avoid that kind of situation. Perhaps they could make cameras that would attract current users of Canon, Nikon, and Sony .... but they need someone to purchase their new products, and the easiest sale is to those who already purchase your product. Any major change needs to result in clear benefit. Personally, I don't see any benefit to their jettisoning K-mount, for example,
wholeheartedly agree with you on the jc penney case study. there is room in pentax's future for a maximum of 2 aps-c DSLRs, the K-1 full frame, the imminent 645 (2019), the adorable pentax q (40 megapixel & better be out before xmas), AND the full frame mirrorless camera of everyone's dreams (or in here apparently, everyone's nightmares)... they can't release too many options, it would be ill-advised.

not sure about this continuum of bigger cameras though, especially if they don't shoot video. that newly announced olympus is the funniest thing i have seen in quite some time, i am looking forward to the Olympus q4 report... the pentax k1 is the heaviest camera in it's class... that weight is not something everyone wants to carry.

perhaps this is not worth mentioning (like so many of my other totally useless comments), but i suspect that if i could actually manage to physically hold a KP in my hands whilst in a store, i probably have not been able to restrain myself... in all likelihood i would prefer the ergonomics to the K-1 i rented for the week... it was just too damn heavy. not trying to insult anyone, but i am certainly not trying to prove anything either...

here is hoping you all can find it in yourselves to accept the forthcoming top-secret pentax k1000 mirrorless camera into your hearts... you know it is on the way after those numbers!! mwahahaha!
01-17-2019, 09:33 PM - 2 Likes   #723
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
All this talk about size, with lots of people preferring the larger K-3ii and K-1 cameras, and relatively few of us preferring the smaller KP, goes to the heart of the arguments @punkrachmaninov and others keep making. I do not know what photographers in general prefer, but current users of Pentax cameras do not seem to prefer small cameras in general. I would expect Pentax to take those preferences into account when designing new equipment.

A few years ago, U.S. retailer J. C. Penney made a radical change in what they carried, lurching towards where the market seemed to be going - and also lurched towards bankruptcy. One of the business magazines described this as "they fired all their old customers before they hired any new ones". Pentax needs to avoid that kind of situation. Perhaps they could make cameras that would attract current users of Canon, Nikon, and Sony .... but they need someone to purchase their new products, and the easiest sale is to those who already purchase your product. Any major change needs to result in clear benefit. Personally, I don't see any benefit to their jettisoning K-mount, for example,
I think there is room for perhaps a few sizes in the Pentax lineup. KP size, k-3 size, and K-1 size. Those should also be able to slot into three different price slots as well.

01-18-2019, 02:30 AM - 1 Like   #724
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Ricoh is in deep stagnation and it's fact. The reference to small-size of company is farfetchedness. Ricoh Corporation is not small, if the owners of company had wish to expand the photo division, Ricoh could be not less successful than Fuji did. They keep Ricoh imaging company alive, but without any progress.

The share of Ricoh (Pentax) on Japanese DSLR market is the smallest (3.1%) for all photo history now.

OK...They will launch new GRIII this year, maybe new 1-2 APS-C camera(s) and 1-2 new lens(es)...
How long will they be afloat with so slow and conservative life? Hard to say....

Even Leica goes beyond their tradition products...

01-18-2019, 03:29 AM - 1 Like   #725
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
All this talk about size, with lots of people preferring the larger K-3ii and K-1 cameras, and relatively few of us preferring the smaller KP, goes to the heart of the arguments @punkrachmaninov and others keep making. I do not know what photographers in general prefer, but current users of Pentax cameras do not seem to prefer small cameras in general. I would expect Pentax to take those preferences into account when designing new equipment.

A few years ago, U.S. retailer J. C. Penney made a radical change in what they carried, lurching towards where the market seemed to be going - and also lurched towards bankruptcy. One of the business magazines described this as "they fired all their old customers before they hired any new ones". Pentax needs to avoid that kind of situation. Perhaps they could make cameras that would attract current users of Canon, Nikon, and Sony .... but they need someone to purchase their new products, and the easiest sale is to those who already purchase your product. Any major change needs to result in clear benefit. Personally, I don't see any benefit to their jettisoning K-mount, for example,
I think the big point is that size is not nearly as important as functionality. You've said many times that you think it is really important that every ILC that Pentax produces have a viewfinder, even if it makes the camera a little bigger. Through the years, Pentax has at points chased tiny size, particularly with certain entry level cameras like the Kx and K-S1.

Pentax shouldn't deliberately release cameras that are bigger than they need to be, but their focus needs to be on having the specifications the market expects for a certain level camera, whether that is frame rate, buffer size, or other specifications.
01-18-2019, 04:17 AM - 3 Likes   #726
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QuoteOriginally posted by punkrachmaninov Quote
wholeheartedly agree with you on the jc penney case study. there is room in pentax's future for a maximum of 2 aps-c DSLRs, the K-1 full frame, the imminent 645 (2019), the adorable pentax q (40 megapixel & better be out before xmas), AND the full frame mirrorless camera of everyone's dreams (or in here apparently, everyone's nightmares)... they can't release too many options, it would be ill-advised.

not sure about this continuum of bigger cameras though, especially if they don't shoot video. that newly announced olympus is the funniest thing i have seen in quite some time, i am looking forward to the Olympus q4 report... the pentax k1 is the heaviest camera in it's class... that weight is not something everyone wants to carry.

perhaps this is not worth mentioning (like so many of my other totally useless comments), but i suspect that if i could actually manage to physically hold a KP in my hands whilst in a store, i probably have not been able to restrain myself... in all likelihood i would prefer the ergonomics to the K-1 i rented for the week... it was just too damn heavy. not trying to insult anyone, but i am certainly not trying to prove anything either...

here is hoping you all can find it in yourselves to accept the forthcoming top-secret pentax k1000 mirrorless camera into your hearts... you know it is on the way after those numbers!! mwahahaha!
Having both the KP and the K-1 ii at the moment, I find the KP to be excellent, particularly with the large grip installed. Plus, it's weight balances its slightly smaller size. it's not diminutive by any means and it is unfortunate that you can not hold one unless you are in a area that has an authorized Pentax dealership (an endangered species these days). Bought mine sight unseen and have been [leasantly surprised. Cheers.

---------- Post added 01-18-19 at 04:25 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Ricoh is in deep stagnation and it's fact.....

The share of Ricoh (Pentax) on Japanese DSLR market is the smallest (3.1%) for all photo history now.

Even Leica goes beyond their tradition products...
The 3.1% you quote is misleading that report was only from big box retailers in Japan, many who do not stock Pentax equipment. Having said that even at 5%, Pentax is a small niche brand. However, over the past 60 years it has been bounced from Asahi to Honeywell to Hoya and now, to Ricoh. Leica began as camera company (the name itself is derived from the founder: Leitz Camera=Leica) and branched into other products (industrial, medical, imaging, etc.). Pentax's path is the opposite. It was the brain child of an optical company (Asahi) and has never been the core business of any company that has owned the brand.

The fact that the brand has been kept alive is a tribute to its engineers and to us, its loyal users and followers. Happy 100th B-Day (for Asahi).
01-18-2019, 07:06 AM - 4 Likes   #727
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
A few years ago, U.S. retailer J. C. Penney made a radical change in what they carried, lurching towards where the market seemed to be going - and also lurched towards bankruptcy. One of the business magazines described this as "they fired all their old customers before they hired any new ones"
I remember that very well. Before the switch I'd go into J.C. Penny to buy a shirt. It would be tagged at $89.99, but on random days, with coupons, or JC Penny discount cards or store credit cards or whatever it would be $29.99. The pricing was inscrutable. It was a silly game to try to get a shirt for a reasonable price. Their revolutionary idea was to just put $29.99 on the shirt all the time. I though it was absolutely brillant!

However their customer base, apparently conditioned to treat clothes shopping as some kind of complicated Pokemon game, rebelled and the company almost went bankrupt. They went back to inscrutable pricing so people can tell their friends that they "saved" $500 on clothes by following all the absurd schemes. And I stopped going to JC Penny forever.

Let's hope Pentax behaves nothing like J.C. Penny.

01-18-2019, 07:36 AM - 2 Likes   #728
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Let's hope Pentax behaves nothing like J.C. Penny.
I don't think you need to worry too much about that. Pentax's parent is very conservative and with the shakeup in the parent's top management in 2017, along with the change in direction from growth by acquisition to achieving profitability on lower sales volumes, it is as close to certain as possible that we won't see radical moves from Ricoh Imaging. The danger, as Mistral75 has pointed out, is that Pentax will not do anything new because Ricoh management doesn't see any potential and the brand dies from neglect.

It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, after a near death experience in bringing the glorious D-FA * 50 to market, the potential is there to bring on a D-FA * 85, DA * 11-18 and a "flagship" APS-C body in the next 12 months without becoming unprofitable. But it appears to me that Ricoh Company management is looking at the big, dark clouds hovering over the camera manufacturing industry and missing the small patch of light in its own portfolio.
01-18-2019, 07:42 AM - 2 Likes   #729
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I remember that very well. Before the switch I'd go into J.C. Penny to buy a shirt. It would be tagged at $89.99, but on random days, with coupons, or JC Penny discount cards or store credit cards or whatever it would be $29.99. The pricing was inscrutable. It was a silly game to try to get a shirt for a reasonable price. Their revolutionary idea was to just put $29.99 on the shirt all the time. I though it was absolutely brillant!

However their customer base, apparently conditioned to treat clothes shopping as some kind of complicated Pokemon game, rebelled and the company almost went bankrupt. They went back to inscrutable pricing so people can tell their friends that they "saved" $500 on clothes by following all the absurd schemes. And I stopped going to JC Penny forever.

Let's hope Pentax behaves nothing like J.C. Penny.
At the danger of TMI, I'll give the example closest to me. For years, every male in my family purchased Penney's underwear - then one time I went there only to find they had made a physical reorganization of the department, giving it a more 'modern' look ..... and replaced "old man" underwear with underwear more desired by 20-somethings - but I was the only one there.

When I first came here, I viewed MILC as "wave of the future". That may still be true, but today is not the future. I don't know how Pentax is going to step from 2018 to 2030, but they will have to do it carefully. I am now 71 - the KP I purchased on Black Friday may or may not be the last camera I purchase from anyone. Pentax will need to develop products desirable to those behind me while still providing what those of us still breathing want.
01-18-2019, 08:38 AM - 2 Likes   #730
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
I don't think you need to worry too much about that. Pentax's parent is very conservative and with the shakeup in the parent's top management in 2017, along with the change in direction from growth by acquisition to achieving profitability on lower sales volumes, it is as close to certain as possible that we won't see radical moves from Ricoh Imaging. The danger, as Mistral75 has pointed out, is that Pentax will not do anything new because Ricoh management doesn't see any potential and the brand dies from neglect.

It doesn't have to be all doom and gloom, after a near death experience in bringing the glorious D-FA * 50 to market, the potential is there to bring on a D-FA * 85, DA * 11-18 and a "flagship" APS-C body in the next 12 months without becoming unprofitable. But it appears to me that Ricoh Company management is looking at the big, dark clouds hovering over the camera manufacturing industry and missing the small patch of light in its own portfolio.
My fear is that they take J.C. Penny's experiences as a lesson or a model: not doing things that appear logical and sensible to move forward and grow the brand for fear of upsetting a shrinking customer base that is very set in their ways. J.C. Penny may have put a tourniquet on their hemmoraging customer base by going back to the silly game pricing, but everyone like me who just wants a decent shirt at a reasonable price goes to Amazon or Target or something. Pentax may choose to cater to the stated wishes of their older and more conservative base right up to the point where none of us are left.
01-18-2019, 08:42 AM - 2 Likes   #731
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I think we will know a bit more with regard to Pentax's next steps by the end of the year. There are a number of cameras that are creeping towards needing to be replaced and oddly two of the biggest ones are at opposite ends of the spectrum -- the 645Z and the K70. Asahiman indicated that there might be a new full frame camera this year as well, although to me, the K-1 doesn't feel as due for a refresh as some of the other models.
01-18-2019, 08:48 AM - 2 Likes   #732
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Pentax may choose to cater to the stated wishes of their older and more conservative base right up to the point where none of us are left.
It would be interesting to get some stats about age groups using Pentax products.

I would guess you are right with your statement.
01-18-2019, 08:52 AM   #733
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Asahiman indicated that there might be a new full frame camera this year as well, although to me, the K-1 doesn't feel as due for a refresh as some of the other models.
I'm expecting the FF camera this year to expand the line. I was expecting (*) an "intro" 24mp model, but an "advanced" 45mp is just as likely.


(*) in function, this might replace the KP in the lineup {which would explain the low pricing for the KP}
01-18-2019, 08:55 AM - 2 Likes   #734
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Asking what size camera photographers generally prefer is like asking what size shoe people generally prefer. They want cameras and shoes fit their bodies and their intended uses! Some people want a size 2 sandal and others want a size 13 winter hiking boot. And given that Pentax generally focuses on high-quality, rugged, WR cameras with full-featured controls, Pentax cameras are likely to be a little bit bigger and heavier than the entry-level plastic pentamirror econo-cameras.

As for mirrorless, only a quarter of Pentaxians think Pentax should develop an FF MILC (2018 Pentax K-mount DSLR User Survey - Photo Industry News | PentaxForums.com). Most Pentaxians want DSLRs and both the recent CIPA stats and Amazon best-seller lists show that most camera buyers still want DSLRs.
01-18-2019, 09:10 AM - 2 Likes   #735
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think we will know a bit more with regard to Pentax's next steps by the end of the year. There are a number of cameras that are creeping towards needing to be replaced and oddly two of the biggest ones are at opposite ends of the spectrum -- the 645Z and the K70. Asahiman indicated that there might be a new full frame camera this year as well, although to me, the K-1 doesn't feel as due for a refresh as some of the other models.
Thanks. We now have 11 months to look forward to and discuss in the meantime.
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