[thibs]

Pre-shutter bursts ? On a DSLR ?
Right....

[repaap]

This is getting hilarious (not sure).

[thibs]

This is getting hilarious (not sure).

Yeah, somehow.

[MMVIII]

Comments on my personal (!, based on my needs, YMMV) evaluation as Edits in Quote:

Well, that's a funny one. Off the top of my head, features I wish I had by now:

• Focus bracketing (most of the competition)>Okay, could use it. As far as I know new versions of remote control software do allow also that.
• Live bulb (Olympus, though bulb timer in K-70, KP & K-1ii is not bad)>Don't see too much problem
• Touch to focus (most of the competition)>no issue
• Eye detection AF (Sony, Fuji, not sure about others)>meh, no need now, maybe I could get used to it
• Animal eye detection AF (coming to Sony)>no
• 4K and 6K photos modes (Panasonic)>no need
• USB in-camera recharging (not sure)>would love that!
• Decent FPS, buffer and fast buffer clearing>no issues
  (it's not just for sports, BTW, but also wildlife - I'm OK with my K-3, but it's not matched by any Pentax model you can currently buy new)
• "Pre-shutter" bursts (not sure, but at least some top m4/3 cams)>not my thing
  (where the camera starts shooting from half-press into a circular buffer and, when you actually hit the shutter, saves a certain number of shots prior to when you hit the shutter)
• A small & light, WR, APS-C wide prime (Fuji 16mm & 23mm F/2, though admittedly that's glass)>right, but a good zoom can cover that. The Fujis I saw had debateable quality, though something between 15/4 and 14/2.8 with more even IQ would be nice - 16/3.5 to be honest, I do cover this with my GRII and GW-adapter

Plus decent video, as you mentioned.>not my priority

That's not to say that Pentax bodies aren't great cameras - they definitely are. If the KP had a better buffer & fps, and larger battery, I'd already own it and would only be really missing focus bracketing, and only wishing for the rest - they fall more into the "nice-to-have" rather than the "must-have" category. But they do add-up and the competition has been improving like crazy.

When I bought my K-3, it totally blew away the X-T1 I was comparing it with, and the Pentax APS-C lens lineup also blew away the Fuji lens line-up! Now, looking at the X-T3 (or the X-H1 or even the X-T30) versus the KP, things are much less clear... BTW, the KP has the same AF module as my K-3. The X-T3's AF is light years away from the X-T1, AFAICT. Fuji has now added small, weather-sealed, silent-focusing, reasonably inexpensive APS-C primes in 16mm, 23mm, 35mm and 50m to their line-up. They've also added a range of other lenses. When I was shopping for my K-3, they didn't even have a 1:1 macro! In the same time, Pentax has added a single, very large, very expensive, fast & sealed ultra-wide APS-C zoom. A nice lens, for sure... Oh, and some WR kit-lenses like the 18-50 RE (which would totally rock my world if it was 15-45).


If my K-3 was to give up the ghost tomorrow, I might buy a used K-3ii or even try to make a KP work for me until 2020. Mostly because of the D-FA 100mm WR (& the DA 1.4X AW) as well as the pain that a system switch entails. Pentax might still be the best system for me. But the equation is nowhere nearly as clear as it was before and it feels like the competition is motoring along while Pentax is resource-starved by its parent company, though what they are producing is still very nice...

And beside that, your list brings things offered by a broad variety of brands and models. If you would choose one model of any other brand, you would also not have all of this together. Compromises are an artform, to know what you really need and choose the according gear another one.

[reh321]

Re the K-3ii replacement, I believe there's a bigger market for that currently than there is for any of the other models in the line-up. Most of the existing models have probably experienced their peak in sales, reaching some level of market saturation, and are now in slow decline - with perhaps the exception of the K-1II. If we go by the enthusiasm in these forums for a new high-end APS-C body, I think there's considerable demand. But whether it's sufficient to justify development costs, I just don't know...

I feel strange in this discussion. Before I purchased the KP, I felt it was the perfect camera for me; three months after purchasing a KP, I feel that it is the perfect camera for me. Sometimes the battery lasts all week; sometimes, like this week, I have to put a second battery in during the week - but I now have three batteries, so that is a non-issue. I have not yet filled the buffer. I have never had a camera with a top LCD, so I don't miss that. My film cameras held just one roll of film at a time, and I've never had a camera that encouraged me to purchase two memory cards at the same time, so I don't miss two SD slots.

But I hear and understand the complaints of those who are used to the K-7/5/3 line and wonder what happens if they drop their camera onto concrete. The K-3ii replacement seems like a mirage, always tantalizing just beyond the next milestone. I have some theories about how this situation arose, but those don't matter. Pentax could drop KP innards + larger buffer into a K-3 body, but they won't; apparently the future 'perfect' and the present 'good enough are in conflict.

[reh321]

Pre-shutter bursts ? On a DSLR ?
Right....

Wanting that would be a reason for getting a MILC; Pentax competes with all types of camera.

[fsge]

Is there something wrong with what you have? I mean, when I got my KP it was the greatest thing ever. Has anything changed in two years or am I just jonesing for a new toy?

I guess the main problem with KP is still its price even 2 years after launch.
Here in EU you would expect to find it around 700 EUR but price tag is still very high for an aging though perfectly capable camera. Introductory price of KP hurt its reputation a lot whereas features and quality of build make it an excellent body that should have been a no brainer buy for many of us...

[Doundounba]

Pre-shutter bursts ? On a DSLR ?
Right....

On a camera. As soon as your camera supports electronic shutter mode, I believe you should be able to easily implement this... Is that not the case? May be liveview only on a DSLR. Heck, even using the mirror, I'm not sure why that should be impossible... Just start shooting on half-press and put the shots in a circular buffer. No? In any case, I don't care much whether my camera has a mirror-box or not. EVFs are another category that has massively improved since I bought my K-3. Obviously YMMV.

And beside that, your list brings things offered by a broad variety of brands and models. If you would choose one model of any other brand, you would also not have all of this together. Compromises are an artform, to know what you really need and choose the according gear another one.

Indeed! I'm trying to show that the competition is moving, not to advocate for any particular brand. Pentax still appeals to me and it is indeed the case that looking at other brands produces no clear winner for me. Switching would be a difficult question of priorities and compromises. I talked about Fuji later in my post, but they're not even my current #1 alternative choice. I'm just pointing out that others are moving fast, while Pentax isn't. It's simply not true to say that Pentax bodies aren't lacking anything except for sports & video features. Pentax are moving though, even in APS-C land, and still have much appeal to me.

[gazonk]

Pentax could drop KP innards + larger buffer into a K-3 body, but they won't; apparently the future 'perfect' and the present 'good enough are in conflict.

What if... they rather come up with a compact FF body with high MP count (e.g. 50 - so that crop mode mp count would be close enough to 24)? Wouldn’t that serve those with lots of crop lenses just as well as a “K-3 iii”, and in addition help them start migrating to FF?

[RonHendriks1966]

I wonder how many units of a camera body Ricoh needs to sell in order for it to be profitable, based on the R&D, production costs and mark-up to a realistic price that is attractive enough to potential buyers?

Absolutely no idea. But what changed over time is that they cut expenses to lower the sales numbers to reach break-even. Less money into R&D, less new equipement, less number of different items in catalogue, less stock in warehouse for different items and on and on.

Back in the days when the K-x was a hot item with all the colors the productionplant of Pentax run at 100 % and produced 250.000 units in a year. Now they are around of 50.000 units.....

[monochrome]

I guess the main problem with KP is still its price even 2 years after launch.
Here in EU you would expect to find it around 700 EUR but price tag is still very high for an aging though perfectly capable camera. Introductory price of KP hurt its reputation a lot whereas features and quality of build make it an excellent body that should have been a no brainer buy for many of us...

I don’t think the price of a new flagship APSc (incl. VAT) would make you any happier than the 2 year old KP price does. They’re always too expensive.

.:

[fsge]

I don’t think the price of a new flagship APSc (incl. VAT) would make you any happier than the 2 year old KP price does. They’re always too expensive.

.:

That is not exactly what I meant.
I dont expect K3 successor to come in line below 1200/1300 EUR, but from first reactions of hardcore clients two years ago, pentax should have started KP pricing around 1000 EUR knowing this was more of an upper mid range than a top of the range APSC, features wise.
Can you believe KP is still at 1100 EUR on amazon france at the moment ? Whereas it did hit the ground in the 600-700 EUR range during black friday sales? I deeply question this pricing strategy, many mistakes I can see in this specific declining sales context...
I am sure I am not the only one thinking it is not a big deal to pay 1300 EUR+ next year for a brand new highly specced body rather than to pay 1000 EUR+ now for an excellent but not so fresh camera...

[ThorSanchez]

But go figure how to explain that to whiners... who know if Ricoh are now working on a 100Mp 645 , or a AF montrer apsc or full frame?

They could, well... you know... tell us what they're working on. Give us a plan. Tell us that our investment in a rugged, feature-packed APS-C camera line was a good choice not only now but in the future. That we'll be able to continue this with the additions of features X, Y, and Z in the next year.

Because what I have now is a four-year old K-3ii that was a slight upgrade from a six-year-old K-3 that has never been replaced and all we have are promises that sometime in the future we're going to have something really great. Promise. Seriously. It'll be awesome. It's right around the corner, only a year, maybe a year and a half or so. Probably. Don't quote me on that.

Sorry about the whining.

[biz-engineer]

Indeed! I'm trying to show that the competition is moving

Moving, for sure they are moving, they could even move more and faster, is it effective? Why should I spend 5 grands to buy a whole set of new lenses for a new mount with optical quality that is more or less the same as the DFA glass I already have? The feeling of novelty is nice, the gadgets features to play with are untertaining for the first few weeks, but what will I continue to use over the months and the years? I mean, if that's about to buy new system for features that we end-up not using , what's the point?

Pentax flagship cameras do the key things that make a difference in images: SR, sensor image quality, rugged bodies, good WR lenses, they even do features such as AA simulator, pixel shift etc... that I even end-up not using and those gadgets increase the complexity of the camera which when shooting can confuse induce error. When in the action of shooting in the field, I want to be able to concentrate on the subject matter and not be bother by a myriad of features that I have to enable or disable. I much prefer having lots of possibilities when back at the desk when time is less an issue.

[reh321]

That is not exactly what I meant.
I dont expect K3 successor to come in line below 1200/1300 EUR, but from first reactions of hardcore clients two years ago, pentax should have started KP pricing around 1000 EUR knowing this was more of an upper mid range than a top of the range APSC, features wise.
Can you believe KP is still at 1100 EUR on amazon france at the moment ? Whereas it did hit the ground in the 600-700 EUR range during black friday sales? I deeply question this pricing strategy, many mistakes I can see in this specific declining sales context...
I am sure I am not the only one thinking it is not a big deal to pay 1300 EUR+ next year for a brand new highly specced body rather than to pay 1000 EUR+ now for an excellent but not so fresh camera...

"Fresh" should depend on characteristics rather than on calendar age.
Even today, I don't know of any camera that matches the KP's high ISO capability.

At B&H, the KP has been priced at $800 ever since the Back Friday sales ended, while the {older} Nikon D500 costs $1000 more.