[Mistral75]

Or then they just renew lisence from 2020 to 2030?

That could be done too -it's a private contract between corporations after all and contracts can always be amended by mutual agreement of the parties.

However, the licence agreement being meant to be extended but not being actually amended yet, around one year before its original termination date, would be an odd situation, in particular for Ricoh Imaging: how can you properly draw mid- and long-term plans if you are not 100% sure of being able to keep on using the same brand as before?

I recognise the point made by biz-engineer though: may be, according to the Japanese culture, a simple shake-hands at the appropriate corporate level is enough for now, technicalities such as a proper amendment can be taken care of at a later stage.

[thibs]

Huh, do we even know that as hard fact or only because one (appreciated Btw) forum member reported it to us ?

[Mistral75]

The latter.

Ooku's recent 'track record':

1" cmos

(about Theta Z1; later proven right)

Theta.

(about the camera behind R02020; later proven right)

Iii，2.22

(about the launch date of Ricoh GR III; later proven right)

[Kunzite]

However, the licence agreement being meant to be extended but not being actually amended yet, around one year before its original termination date, would be an odd situation, in particular for Ricoh Imaging: how can you properly draw mid- and long-term plans if you are not 100% sure of being able to keep on using the same brand as before?

Precisely.
Which means, they made sure they could continue to use the Pentax brand.

By the way, the level of inside info with knowledge about a soon to be launched product, and the level needed to have access to the specifics about the Hoya-Ricoh deal are IMO worlds apart.
OoKU doesn't even say what's the source. Maybe it's you.

[ffking]

Or then they just renew lisence from 2020 to 2030?

Exactly! - a lot of FUD about nothing

[fsge]

By the way, the level of inside info with knowledge about a soon to be launched product, and the level needed to have access to the specifics about the Hoya-Ricoh deal are IMO worlds apart.

Fully agree.

[Mistral75]

Precisely.
Which means, they made sure they could continue to use the Pentax brand.

(...)

Or the opposite: they made sure they would be prepared to successfully switch from the Pentax brand to the Ricoh brand.

Ricoh are used to external growth (they purchased Savin, Gestetner, Lanier, Rex-Rotary, Monroe, Nashuatec, Ikon, IBM Printing Systems and more) and either to discontinue the brand of the acquired business or to keep marketing products under their original brand name.

(...)
By the way, the level of inside info with knowledge about a soon to be launched product, and the level needed to have access to the specifics about the Hoya-Ricoh deal are IMO worlds apart.
(...)

Shall we understand that you are implying that Ooku is purposely trying to deceive us?

(...)
OoKU doesn't even say what's the source. Maybe it's you.

???

I discovered on 15 November 2017 that the Pentax trademark still belonged to Hoya, not Ricoh. I'm specific on the date because of this post on Forum Pentax. At that time I was investigating the links between various camera and lens Kickstarter projects using different brand names (Meyer-Optik Görlitz, Oprema Jena, Emil Busch A.-G. Rathenow, C.P. Goerz, Ihagee Elbaflex) and had discovered that all of the trademarks belonged to net SE, a German group that was using some kind of a crowdfunding Ponzi scheme and went bankrupt less than a year after that. I made a search on Pentax just for fun and...

I have discussed the ownership of the Pentax trademark several times on Pentax Forums, the most recent time being yesterday following a remark made by JPT...

(...)

As for the idea of Ricoh prioritizing Ricoh branded products over Pentax, that’s ridiculous in the context of the above and the amount of Ricoh products that were abandoned (GXR, GX200, CX, PX). It just happens to be the case that several Ricoh products are ready at this timing.

...a tongue-in -cheek comment on my side (duly flagged as such, one's never too cautious on this forum)...

Nah, Ricoh Imaging are focusing on the Ricoh brand and they are just about to sell their rights to the Pentax trademark together with all the K-mount and 645-mount related intellectual property rights to an unknown Chinese company, which will use the Pentax brand to launch camera and lens projects on Kickstarter.

[/tongue-in-cheek]

...a question from RonHendriks1966, which I answered as precisely as possible...

Question
Does Ricoh have to pay to use the Pentax brand name because it is owned by Hoya? What would be normal business. A yearly fee, or they bought the right for like 10 years or what?

...and a question from ffking, which I again answered as precisely as possible.

Do we know for a fact that Hoya owns the Pentax trade name?

So, in a sense, you might claim that this is a four-people conspiracy (JPT, RonHendriks1966, ffking and myself), led and fuelled by yours truly , that enticed Ooku into making the statement I discovered this morning when accessing Pentax Forums:

Pentax ownership belongs to HOYA, the right to use belongs to Ricoh, and the lease contract expires in 2020.
Maybe this is why Ricoh does not continue to develop Pentax.

But no, taking the risk of disappointing you, I must confess that I am not the source of Ooku's statement.

Until this morning I had no idea of the termination date of the brand licence agreement signed by and between Hoya and Ricoh and pertaining to the Pentax trademark. I didn't even know whether this agreement was unlimited or time-limited, read my answer to RonHendriks1966.

[Kunzite]

Or the opposite: they made sure they would be prepared to successfully switch from the Pentax brand to the Ricoh brand.

I like my version better - and IMHO it makes more sense.

Shall we understand that you are implying that Ooku is purposely trying to deceive us?

Not unless I wrote that, which I didn't - so, why the strawman?

???

I discovered on 15 November 2017 that the Pentax trademark still belonged to Hoya, not Ricoh. I'm specific on the date because of this post on Forum Pentax. At that time I was investigating the links between various camera and lens Kickstarter projects using different brand names (Meyer-Optik Görlitz, Oprema Jena, Emil Busch A.-G. Rathenow, C.P. Goerz, Ihagee Elbaflex) and had discovered that all of the trademarks belonged to net SE, a German group that was using some kind of a crowdfunding Ponzi scheme and went bankrupt less than a year after that. I made a search on Pentax just for fun and...

I have discussed the ownership of the Pentax trademark several times on Pentax Forums, the most recent time being yesterday following a remark made by JPT...

That's why I said, maybe it started from you - from your investigation.
Isn't that based on information from some site?

So, in a sense, you might claim that this is a four-people conspiracy

Again, why the strawman? I'm not talking about any conspiracy; I'm just trying to find out what we actually know.

[RonHendriks1966]

So, in a sense, you might claim that this is a four-people conspiracy (JPT, RonHendriks1966, ffking and myself), led and fuelled by yours truly , that enticed Ooku into making the statement I discovered this morning when accessing Pentax Forums:

With my name in the group.........some people start to think it must be a conspiracy......

[Mistral75]

I like my version better - and IMHO it makes more sense.

(...)

I respect your opinion as such.

(...)

Not unless I wrote that, which I didn't - so, why the strawman?

(...)

Stating the obvious (somebody can have 'inside info with knowledge about a soon to be launched product' without 'hav[ing] access to the specifics about the Hoya-Ricoh deal') implied that Ooku:

1. either was careless when making his statement this morning, writing something that would undoubtedly make a splash without being reasonably confident in its veracity and thus taking the risk of jeopardising his reputation here (397 posts, 347 likes as of now, mostly obtained by revealing insider information) by subsequently being proven wrong -which I very much doubt;
2. or was purposely trying to deceive us -which I doubt even more.

Hence my former question. I should have written the two alternatives, I agree.

(...)

That's why I said, maybe it started from you - from your investigation.
(...)

'Maybe it started from you' is not what you wrote. You wrote something much more specific and potentially offensive: 'OoKU doesn't even say what's the source. Maybe it's you.' Your excellent command of English and rhetoric makes it difficult to envisage your considering those two sentences as conveying the same message.

(...)

Again, why the strawman?

Had you been you more relaxed, you would have made the difference between a joke, duly flagged by a smiley, and a straw man, wouldn't you?

[Mistral75]

With my name in the group.........some people start to think it must be a conspiracy......

it's definitely a conspiracy, the proof of it being your recently writing nice things about Ricoh and Pentax as part of the cover you are now under.

[Kunzite]

Wow. You chose to be offended by this discussion. What would you do if we'd have an argument? Declare war?

I'm quite relaxed, about this subject that is. Don't forget, neither of us are native English speakers so it's dangerous to assume subtle nuances and intent. It's safer to take what was written, rather than make up "between the lines" stuff.
But you're talking about conspiracies, me implying stuff about OoKU, and so on. All nonsense.

I'm not claiming anything except that we know way too little.
And by the way, this November there's some sort of an anniversary.

[Mistral75]

(...); I'm just trying to find out what we actually know.

Sorry for answering again the same message but you edited it when I was responding to the original version.

What do we know? We know with certainty that:

1. Ricoh Imaging are using the Pentax brand for ILCs, their lenses and accessories
2. The Pentax trademark still belongs to Hoya
3. Hence there has to be some kind of a brand licence agreement signed by and between Hoya and Ricoh (of subsidiaries of these companies), organising the use of the Pentax brand by Ricoh and their subsidiaries
4. A fellow member has stated that this licence agreement (he used the terms 'lease contract') expires in 2020
5. This fellow member is well known here and has revealed many pieces of information, most of them about soon-to-be-launched products
6. Another member, which I won't qualify , has talked several times, on this forum and on other (mainly French) forums, about the Pentax trademark belonging to Hoya and Ricoh Imaging using it with permission, the last time being around eight hours before the first fellow member made his statement about the end date of the licence agreement.

Then it's up to each one of us to make up his/her mind.

[Mistral75]

Wow. You chose to be offended by this discussion. What would you do if we'd have an argument? Declare war?

(...).

There would be no need for a war. I have a few friends in Romania who would be delighted to take care of the situation.

[rawr]

A drone that can lift a K-1 with lens and gimbal is a bit scary, AFAIC.

Certainly.

Pentax Surveying are using a re-badged DJI Matrice 600 drone. It has a max payload of 6kg and a max takeoff weight of 15kg. Not something I'd like dropping onto me.