11-18 and revamped 35mm F2 on january 31?

**monochrome** · 10-12-2019, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

It's the K-1 Mark II's accelerator unit that bridles the centre performance of the Pentax version.

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house · 10-12-2019, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by luftfluss

Huh, that's strange. The Pentax was tested on a K-1 II, the Tokina on a Nikon D810.

The Tokina measured as having higher center sharpness, the Pentax more even across the frame.

Tokina measured as having lower CA.

The stand out thing to me is that the Pentax is weighted towards wide open whereas the Tokina improves by stopping down. Look at the Pentax edge behaviour, loosing edge performance at f5.6 looks a bit odd to me. Do you know of any other lens doing that? Perhaps the results are to be taken with a grain of salt?

Class A · 10-12-2019, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

I've seen a few websites ignoring the Pentax patents and keep on going with the 'all new Pentax lenses are rebadged Tamron or Tokina lenses' mantra...

Indeed, it's funny how one of them speculates about the Pentax HD D-FA* 50/1.4 probably being the result of a collaboration between Tokina and Pentax in their Pentax review but make no mention of Pentax in the Tokina Opera review.

But, hey, we know from their 2018 meeting, where they nominated the K-1 II as the second-worst camera of 2018, that all staff put up their hands and proclaimed they "love Pentax!", so it must be something wrong with our perception.

**luftfluss** · 10-12-2019, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by house

The stand out thing to me is that the Pentax is weighted towards wide open whereas the Tokina improves by stopping down. Look at the Pentax edge behaviour, loosing edge performance at f5.6 looks a bit odd to me. Do you know of any other lens doing that? Perhaps the results are to be taken with a grain of salt?

My guess would be sample variation (as you noted), but who knows? The fact that the Tokina reaches peak edge sharpness at f/11, whereas the Pentax's is at f/4, leads me to wonder if there's some lens alignment issue with the Tokina.

Mistral75 · 10-12-2019, 01:27 PM - **2 Likes**

I'm not so sure ePHOTOzine's tests are as professional as and on par with those of Optical Limits or LensTip.com for instance.

house · 10-12-2019, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

I'm not so sure ePHOTOzine's tests are as professional as and on par with those of Optical Limits or LensTip.com for instance.

With the lenses/cameras we have these days it must be very difficult to be absolutely sure the tests are correct. Tolerances must be quite small.

wstruth · 10-13-2019, 05:01 AM

Originally posted by house

With the lenses/cameras we have these days it must be very difficult to be absolutely sure the tests are correct. Tolerances must be quite small.

And sampling size is very small too: just one lens. Iv'e had lenses that perform better than lenstip's reviews, the most memorable was my 16-50. To be honest though i think mine was a very good copy.

**TwoUptons** · 10-13-2019, 11:23 AM

It would be funny (in an extremely un-funny way) if delays on all the other Pentax lenses were due to success selling Tokina versions of Pentax lenses... though I doubt that’s the case...

-Eric

Mistral75 · 10-13-2019, 12:16 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by TwoUptons

It would be funny (in an extremely un-funny way) if delays on all the other Pentax lenses were due to success selling Tokina versions of Pentax lenses... though I doubt that’s the case...

-Eric

Why would it be? Successfully selling means producing more. Not so much more in absolute terms though since we are talking about a $950 50mm lens, not a $250 walk-around lens.

Delays or rather a slow development pace come from low R&D funding, which has nothing to do with supposed production bottlenecks. On the contrary, the more money Smart Vision make from their partnership with Tokina (whatever its content), the more funding available for R&D and the quicker the development pace.

Going one step further, one could suppose that an ambitious lens like the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW wouldn't have been developed at all in the absence of the incremental return on investment provided by the Tokina version.

**TwoUptons** · 10-13-2019, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Why would it be? Successfully selling means producing more. Not so much more in absolute terms though since we are talking about a $950 50mm lens, not a $250 walk-around lens.

Delays or rather a slow development pace come from low R&D funding, which has nothing to do with supposed production bottlenecks. On the contrary, the more money Smart Vision make from their partnership with Tokina (whatever its content), the more funding available for R&D and the quicker the development pace.

Going one step further, one could suppose that an ambitious lens like the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW wouldn't have been developed at all in the absence of the incremental return on investment provided by the Tokina version.

Oh, I agree entirely. I was speculating based merely on the possibility of production delays. If Tokina sold a bazillion 50mm lenses, that might interfere with the production of something else that we might want more.

And it’s all totally speculative, nothing real in terms of news...

-Eric

Mistral75 · 10-13-2019, 01:13 PM

I'd rather speculate on the opposite.

The lens market has been falling in parallel with the ILC market: from 30.4 million units shipped in 2012 to 18 million units in 2018 (CIPA figures) and potentially 13.4 million in 2019 if the last four months of the year follow the same trend as the first eight months. In addition, these 18 million units in 2018 and 13.4 million units in 2019 include a large share of mirrorless lenses, a market which Pentax is absent from, whereas the 30.4 million units of 2012 where mostly SLR lenses (remember, in addition, that the manufacturing of Q lenses was outsourced to Nidec Copal).

Therefore, if anything, its over-capacity that threatens Ricoh's Vietnamese factory, not under-capacity. Hence my assumption (I have no insider information on this) that the Tokina opera 50mm f/1.4 could be manufactured by Ricoh -what I am sure of is that Ricoh would have welcomed such an opportunity, should it have arisen.

Kunzite · 10-13-2019, 01:18 PM

I doubt Tokina is selling more of the 50mm than Pentax. What made me think so is the other site's "I want it/I own it" counters, which don't represent much but Pentax' is an order a magnitude higher.
Yes, the Canon and Nikon user bases are much larger - but what if they (those looking for a 3rd-party 50mm) prefer the Sigma Art instead? (it doesn't have to be the better product).

**mlt** · 10-13-2019, 01:30 PM

Is there a breakdown by manufacturer in these figures for reductions in lens sales?

Mistral75 · 10-13-2019, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by mlt

Is there a breakdown by manufacturer in these figures for reductions in lens sales?

No. The only breakdown published by CIPA is by image circle diameter: 'Lenses for 35mm and larger format Cameras' / 'Lenses for smaller than 35mm format Cameras'.

**BruceBanner** · 10-13-2019, 03:36 PM

Slighty off topic here (but on topic hue hue hue), I was really hoping (by now) some HD FA 35/2 comparison shots/review vs its predecessor and possibly pitched against the FA31 which I'm sure many of you might agree is a choice contender if looking for a prime around this focal length. Did I miss it, has someone started a HD FA35/2 thread/review?

10-13-2019, 01:30 PM	#1033
mlt Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,159	Is there a breakdown by manufacturer in these figures for reductions in lens sales? Last edited by mlt; 10-13-2019 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Add words

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10-12-2019, 11:15 AM	#1021
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Mistral75 It's the K-1 Mark II's accelerator unit that bridles the centre performance of the Pentax version. Thread Winner #2 Thread Winner.

10-12-2019, 11:32 AM	#1022
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	Originally posted by luftfluss Huh, that's strange. The Pentax was tested on a K-1 II, the Tokina on a Nikon D810. The Tokina measured as having higher center sharpness, the Pentax more even across the frame. Tokina measured as having lower CA. The stand out thing to me is that the Pentax is weighted towards wide open whereas the Tokina improves by stopping down. Look at the Pentax edge behaviour, loosing edge performance at f5.6 looks a bit odd to me. Do you know of any other lens doing that? Perhaps the results are to be taken with a grain of salt?

10-12-2019, 12:27 PM	#1023
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Mistral75 I've seen a few websites ignoring the Pentax patents and keep on going with the 'all new Pentax lenses are rebadged Tamron or Tokina lenses' mantra... Indeed, it's funny how one of them speculates about the Pentax HD D-FA* 50/1.4 probably being the result of a collaboration between Tokina and Pentax in their Pentax review but make no mention of Pentax in the Tokina Opera review. But, hey, we know from their 2018 meeting, where they nominated the K-1 II as the second-worst camera of 2018, that all staff put up their hands and proclaimed they "love Pentax!", so it must be something wrong with our perception.

10-12-2019, 01:15 PM	#1024
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619	Originally posted by house The stand out thing to me is that the Pentax is weighted towards wide open whereas the Tokina improves by stopping down. Look at the Pentax edge behaviour, loosing edge performance at f5.6 looks a bit odd to me. Do you know of any other lens doing that? Perhaps the results are to be taken with a grain of salt? My guess would be sample variation (as you noted), but who knows? The fact that the Tokina reaches peak edge sharpness at f/11, whereas the Pentax's is at f/4, leads me to wonder if there's some lens alignment issue with the Tokina.

10-12-2019, 01:27 PM - 2 Likes	#1025
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	I'm not so sure ePHOTOzine's tests are as professional as and on par with those of Optical Limits or LensTip.com for instance.

10-12-2019, 01:45 PM	#1026
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	Originally posted by Mistral75 I'm not so sure ePHOTOzine's tests are as professional as and on par with those of Optical Limits or LensTip.com for instance. With the lenses/cameras we have these days it must be very difficult to be absolutely sure the tests are correct. Tolerances must be quite small.

10-13-2019, 05:01 AM	#1027
wstruth Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: at my kitchen table Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,294	Originally posted by house With the lenses/cameras we have these days it must be very difficult to be absolutely sure the tests are correct. Tolerances must be quite small. And sampling size is very small too: just one lens. Iv'e had lenses that perform better than lenstip's reviews, the most memorable was my 16-50. To be honest though i think mine was a very good copy.

10-13-2019, 11:23 AM	#1028
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,210	It would be funny (in an extremely un-funny way) if delays on all the other Pentax lenses were due to success selling Tokina versions of Pentax lenses... though I doubt that’s the case... -Eric

10-13-2019, 12:16 PM - 1 Like	#1029
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by TwoUptons It would be funny (in an extremely un-funny way) if delays on all the other Pentax lenses were due to success selling Tokina versions of Pentax lenses... though I doubt that’s the case... -Eric Why would it be? Successfully selling means producing more. Not so much more in absolute terms though since we are talking about a $950 50mm lens, not a $250 walk-around lens. Delays or rather a slow development pace come from low R&D funding, which has nothing to do with supposed production bottlenecks. On the contrary, the more money Smart Vision make from their partnership with Tokina (whatever its content), the more funding available for R&D and the quicker the development pace. Going one step further, one could suppose that an ambitious lens like the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW wouldn't have been developed at all in the absence of the incremental return on investment provided by the Tokina version.

10-13-2019, 12:57 PM	#1030
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,210	Originally posted by Mistral75 Why would it be? Successfully selling means producing more. Not so much more in absolute terms though since we are talking about a $950 50mm lens, not a $250 walk-around lens. Delays or rather a slow development pace come from low R&D funding, which has nothing to do with supposed production bottlenecks. On the contrary, the more money Smart Vision make from their partnership with Tokina (whatever its content), the more funding available for R&D and the quicker the development pace. Going one step further, one could suppose that an ambitious lens like the HD Pentax-D FA★ 50mm f/1.4 SDM AW wouldn't have been developed at all in the absence of the incremental return on investment provided by the Tokina version. Oh, I agree entirely. I was speculating based merely on the possibility of production delays. If Tokina sold a bazillion 50mm lenses, that might interfere with the production of something else that we might want more. And it’s all totally speculative, nothing real in terms of news... -Eric

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10-13-2019, 01:13 PM	#1031
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	I'd rather speculate on the opposite. The lens market has been falling in parallel with the ILC market: from 30.4 million units shipped in 2012 to 18 million units in 2018 (CIPA figures) and potentially 13.4 million in 2019 if the last four months of the year follow the same trend as the first eight months. In addition, these 18 million units in 2018 and 13.4 million units in 2019 include a large share of mirrorless lenses, a market which Pentax is absent from, whereas the 30.4 million units of 2012 where mostly SLR lenses (remember, in addition, that the manufacturing of Q lenses was outsourced to Nidec Copal). Therefore, if anything, its over-capacity that threatens Ricoh's Vietnamese factory, not under-capacity. Hence my assumption (I have no insider information on this) that the Tokina opera 50mm f/1.4 could be manufactured by Ricoh -what I am sure of is that Ricoh would have welcomed such an opportunity, should it have arisen.

10-13-2019, 01:18 PM	#1032
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I doubt Tokina is selling more of the 50mm than Pentax. What made me think so is the other site's "I want it/I own it" counters, which don't represent much but Pentax' is an order a magnitude higher. Yes, the Canon and Nikon user bases are much larger - but what if they (those looking for a 3rd-party 50mm) prefer the Sigma Art instead? (it doesn't have to be the better product).

10-13-2019, 01:46 PM	#1034
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by mlt Is there a breakdown by manufacturer in these figures for reductions in lens sales? No. The only breakdown published by CIPA is by image circle diameter: 'Lenses for 35mm and larger format Cameras' / 'Lenses for smaller than 35mm format Cameras'.

10-13-2019, 03:36 PM	#1035
BruceBanner Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 5,404	Slighty off topic here (but on topic hue hue hue), I was really hoping (by now) some HD FA 35/2 comparison shots/review vs its predecessor and possibly pitched against the FA31 which I'm sure many of you might agree is a choice contender if looking for a prime around this focal length. Did I miss it, has someone started a HD FA35/2 thread/review?