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02-06-2019, 10:27 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by EFats Quote
Well I don't know, we have a rather large chain of shops here (they sell more than just cameras) and they have ramped up their advertising around town for their photographic services and gear.
I don't think you're recognizing the trend, EFats:

Store closures an ugly reality - Inside Imaging

It's the End of the Road for Ritz and Wolf Camera Stores

UK's biggest photography retailer closing down all stores tonight - The Verge

Canon reckon the market for 'our' kind of photography will halve in the years to come.

02-06-2019, 11:52 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by EFats Quote
Maybe we're getting a bit off-topic, but I think the lack of presence at the show isn't a one-off for Pentax/Richo, it's indicative of a bigger problem.
Adaption to market conditions. Canon have started to do the same, but it's not yet obvious. In a couple a years from now, you will realize that Canon have released a lot less camera models, and have retired from some market places. And if you look at the number of new products from Canon and Nikon in the last couple of years, you'll find that they've reduced considerably.
02-07-2019, 01:32 AM   #48
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This thread should redirect automatically here: Ricoh booth at CP+ - Page 4 - PentaxForums.com
02-16-2019, 11:02 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Merv-O Quote
That I agree with...It's simply marketing and advertising....I think because RICOH is a major player in Japan, they always attend Photokina. There are certain industry shows you really need to appear at to remain viable...I guess we are the "below the 5%" Pentax nation that yearn for more followers so the brand stays viable. At least I do.
The elephant in the room is Pentax is shrinking, not expanding.

02-16-2019, 11:36 AM   #50
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Pentax does not want to speak with their custemours and hiding on social media
02-16-2019, 11:42 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by steephill Quote
the uk distributer and service centre (johnson photopia) went bust last september so there is no-one to represent ricoh-pentax in the uk at the moment.
aha!! Here’s the answer..
02-16-2019, 11:54 AM - 2 Likes   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I don't think you're recognizing the trend, EFats:

Store closures an ugly reality - Inside Imaging

It's the End of the Road for Ritz and Wolf Camera Stores

UK's biggest photography retailer closing down all stores tonight - The Verge

Canon reckon the market for 'our' kind of photography will halve in the years to come.
It isn’t just camera stores, it is retail generally.

Here in the US, this morning a chain of 1500 shoe stores founded in 1957 announced it is closing everything for good at the end of March. A national toy chain (Toys ‘R Us) closed suddenly last year, just before the holiday season - with no warning. A number of clothing retailers have closed up. Sears has gradually dismantled itself over the last decade - you can get Craftsman Tools and Kenmore Appliances at Lowes and Home Depot now, so often the brands live on.

Part of this is because companies decided they had to BUY these retail chains - with borrowed money - and the debt crushed them when business declined. Youm’ve read about Nikon’s problems - too much manufacturing capacity and not enough sales, etc.

Being small might be a good thing for Pentax.

02-16-2019, 12:04 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Adaption to market conditions. Canon have started to do the same, but it's not yet obvious. In a couple a years from now, you will realize that Canon have released a lot less camera models, and have retired from some market places. And if you look at the number of new products from Canon and Nikon in the last couple of years, you'll find that they've reduced considerably.

Yup, you may be on to something since the Canon EOS R and the Nikon Z just sit at idle while Ricoh/Pentax just keep rolling out the new stuff...……….

Pentax is not "adapting" to market conditions, they are "watching" the market conditions..... as in watching it "fly right under their noses".
02-16-2019, 12:46 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by alcstudios Quote
Yup, you may be on to something since the Canon EOS R and the Nikon Z just sit at idle while Ricoh/Pentax just keep rolling out the new stuff...……….
I know you interpret in some ways... Ok. Very seriously, there is a cost reduction on retailer side for Canon as well. Sure they roll out new stuff, but they also said themselves that they expect the market reduced in half.
Ricoh doesn't invest in Pentax anymore, no serious investment, unless they are holding back on the K mount lenses and bodies because they also invest in a new mount.

You also don't know how much of the mirrorless they will actually sell. I haven't seen any EOS R or Z7 users yet. Panasonic took a lot of risk with the S1 and S1R, they don't have any legacy full frame glass like Canon and Nikon, so it is not to be excluded that Panasonic will have to take their losses.

If every camera model would sell in high quantity regardless of the number of potential buyers, that would be easy. Canon can release 1,2,3, 5 or 10 mirrorless models, and Nikon also 10 models, it make Pentax look dumb... but the more model they release, the less likely they are to turn a profit...

But, please go ahead, buy yourself an Sony A7rII, Sony A9, Canon EOS R, Canon EOS RP, Nikon Z6, Nikon Z7, Panasonic S1, Panasonic S1R... go ahead, you'll be the only one.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-16-2019 at 12:54 PM.
02-16-2019, 02:17 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I know you interpret in some ways... Ok. Very seriously, there is a cost reduction on retailer side for Canon as well. Sure they roll out new stuff, but they also said themselves that they expect the market reduced in half.
Ricoh doesn't invest in Pentax anymore, no serious investment, unless they are holding back on the K mount lenses and bodies because they also invest in a new mount.

You also don't know how much of the mirrorless they will actually sell. I haven't seen any EOS R or Z7 users yet. Panasonic took a lot of risk with the S1 and S1R, they don't have any legacy full frame glass like Canon and Nikon, so it is not to be excluded that Panasonic will have to take their losses.

If every camera model would sell in high quantity regardless of the number of potential buyers, that would be easy. Canon can release 1,2,3, 5 or 10 mirrorless models, and Nikon also 10 models, it make Pentax look dumb... but the more model they release, the less likely they are to turn a profit...

But, please go ahead, buy yourself an Sony A7rII, Sony A9, Canon EOS R, Canon EOS RP, Nikon Z6, Nikon Z7, Panasonic S1, Panasonic S1R... go ahead, you'll be the only one.

You are saying you have never seen a mirrorless camera in use????? by looking at your join date and post count it seems you don't get out to shoot much , Although your opinion is strong... it is very jaded indeed, and that's just where we differ, I travel the southern United States shooting motorsports events, I see lots of the same people over and over again and the mirrorless systems are definitely working their way into shooters arsenals, given it's mainly the video guys at this point, but the cameras are sprouting up which means they are selling. Or maybe the mirrorless systems are all stolen?????


I have been shooting motorsports since 2009 starting with an old K10D and all the way up to my last 2 K3's, guess how many Pentax cameras I have seen in my world? I would only need 1 hand to count them on.... It only proves that we live in 2 very different worlds.
02-16-2019, 09:46 PM - 1 Like   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I know you interpret in some ways... Ok. Very seriously, there is a cost reduction on retailer side for Canon as well. Sure they roll out new stuff, but they also said themselves that they expect the market reduced in half.
Ricoh doesn't invest in Pentax anymore, no serious investment, unless they are holding back on the K mount lenses and bodies because they also invest in a new mount.

You also don't know how much of the mirrorless they will actually sell. I haven't seen any EOS R or Z7 users yet. Panasonic took a lot of risk with the S1 and S1R, they don't have any legacy full frame glass like Canon and Nikon, so it is not to be excluded that Panasonic will have to take their losses.

If every camera model would sell in high quantity regardless of the number of potential buyers, that would be easy. Canon can release 1,2,3, 5 or 10 mirrorless models, and Nikon also 10 models, it make Pentax look dumb... but the more model they release, the less likely they are to turn a profit...

But, please go ahead, buy yourself an Sony A7rII, Sony A9, Canon EOS R, Canon EOS RP, Nikon Z6, Nikon Z7, Panasonic S1, Panasonic S1R... go ahead, you'll be the only one.
You really should look at some numbers...
thanks to PhotoRumors.com we have these nice infographics they released on Monday (they arn't the only ones who do this every year)what-happened-to-the-camera-industry-in-2018

we are basically at 40/60 split now in terms of what is being built mirrorless/mirrored.

if you do the math on this for 2017-18 mirrorless has a massive 34.14% increase in one year. 2016-17 was a 26.15%. Now you do see a tip up in DSLR sales but look at the next one...


the camera market is down as a whole because everyone has whats "good enough" in their pocket.

I work at Disney World and handle 100+ guest cameras a day and when it comes to "new" cameras guests have, they are almost always mirrorless, mostly Sony and Fuji. If I am handed a DSLR its almost always some old Cannon Ti-something that you can tell has never had the lens removed from it and its on the best settings ever "Auto+"; whats really weird tho is that usually there is some old point-&-shoot and a modern cell phone being thrown at you and they want the same photo taken on all devices. Typically the younger the family the more likely they are to have a mirroless or just their cell phone. Also you completely missed the Sony a6X00 series, which hands down is what I see the most. APSC with great options, better RAWs than Cannon, can fit into a purse, and has adapters for almost every lens ever made. whats not to like?
to go even a step further I will shamelessly quote myself taking about where Pentax should go almost 5 years ago.
what-should-pentax-do-49#post3071482
QuoteOriginally posted by Nebulous Quote
the way I look at it going forward the first company to make a truly professional mirror-less will cause a shift (one could argue that RED has already done this)

But if it was me I would actually go in the direction of more accessories, less on the body its self.
make two simple very rugged bodies one with a shutter, one mirrorless.
make them fully controllable with a smartphone/tablet and wireless live view
have a "stills" specific grip and a "video" specific grip.
this would give Pentax the ability to fine tune the cameras to certain users with out having to build each a camera.
Also if you mostly shoot stills but occasionally shoot video then you can have the video grip for when you need the better I/O or what ever
also if the accessories are compatible through model generations then you might only have to upgrade part of your gear at a time

The GH4 has an optional video grip that outputs 4k over 4x 3G-SDI and adds some other I/O options but it doubles the price of the camera (if not more) which makes it kind of impractical as well as its pretty much just an I/O.

but ill just be happy when i have something to use all my FF glass with (that isnt a cannon with an adapter)
While I suggested they would do one sensor two avenues, every one went two and two. Nikon Z6/Z7, Cannon EOS R/RP, Panasonic S1/S1R GH5s/GH5, Sony A7III/A7IIIR. All of these cameras are very similar is some sense but in the end one is for video the other for stills.
Something else i didnt know when i wrote that post was that getting rid of the mirror in the body make the lenses less complicated internally; hence the Nikon 58mm F0.95. Another reason to usher in the mirrorless world.

While I don't care if you personally like mirrorless cameras the math dose not match your assessment and personal observations, as they sell VERY well.
I still don't think the full professional mirrorless is there but i think Nikon is the one on the right track.
Sadly however, I feel you are right that Ricoh will not be investing the same in Pentax. They are looking at the numbers too and seeing the same things; cameras don't make money anymore. You use the thing in your pocket and if your interested you turn it in to a hobby and a few into a profession, but thats just a few. Also I feel they will always look at the K-01 numbers and forget they were just a little too early with that one (i know it was Hoya but still).

Sorry you got me at the wrong time but, all of the mirrorless bashing is just straight ignorant. When we go to mirrorless cameras their sensors become like film stock and then i can use the glass i love on what ever stock I want! want x-tans go Fuji want RAW high speed motion for CGI shoot RED ,want super soft fall off and rich skin tones Arri, have some random old glass just sitting there, mirrorless makes it an adapter away versus a body or camera system away.
For me unless im shooting high speed action i just don't see the need for the mirror and prism anymore.
02-16-2019, 11:21 PM - 1 Like   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nebulous Quote
Sorry you got me at the wrong time but, all of the mirrorless bashing is just straight ignorant.
Thanks for sharing this market data (from a rumor site... ok). I'm not bashing mirrorless at all. My point is that the market is smaller (and your data confirm just that). In a smaller market, the more camera models will be released the less profitable they will be (assuming the market size stays the same). So, in 2018/2019 there is a large number of mirrorless cameras released, so Pentax look like they gave up, but it is expected that Sony, Canon, Nikon and Panasonic will back down with mirrorless like Pentax did with the K1 system: the small number of people still using ILC cameras can't afford to spend so much money every year for photography. Beyond a certain point, more cameras will not result in more sales. And that thread is completely missleading: Ricoh doesn't show up at an unknown to the rest of the world photo exhibition and it makes the headline news on Pentax forum, how relevant is that? I mean, this thread should be closed or move to a camera industry discussion, it has nothing to do with Pentax news.
02-17-2019, 12:19 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Thanks for sharing this market data (from a rumor site... ok). I'm not bashing mirrorless at all. My point is that the market is smaller (and your data confirm just that). In a smaller market, the more camera models will be released the less profitable they will be (assuming the market size stays the same). So, in 2018/2019 there is a large number of mirrorless cameras released, so Pentax look like they gave up, but it is expected that Sony, Canon, Nikon and Panasonic will back down with mirrorless like Pentax did with the K1 system: the small number of people still using ILC cameras can't afford to spend so much money every year for photography. Beyond a certain point, more cameras will not result in more sales. And that thread is completely missleading: Ricoh doesn't show up at an unknown to the rest of the world photo exhibition and it makes the headline news on Pentax forum, how relevant is that? I mean, this thread should be closed or move to a camera industry discussion, it has nothing to do with Pentax news.

]Thanks for sharing this market data (from a rumor site... ok)… So this rumor site may not be truthful?

My point is that the market is smaller (and your data confirm just that)……… but it's a rumor site... ok. Well at least you found something to confirm your personal narrative

more cameras will not result in more sales...…… How about Pentax releasing "NO" cameras, how are those sales going so far?? Pentax is the only one not trying


Ricoh doesn't show up at an unknown to the rest of the world photo exhibition and it makes the headline news on Pentax forum...………. I'm sure to some people, this photo exhibition is very important..... and then there are some people who never look past their own nose

how relevant is that?...……….. Relevant enough for you to post in it 10 times
02-17-2019, 12:28 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by alcstudios Quote
]Thanks for sharing this market data (from a rumor site... ok)… So this rumor site may not be truthful?
I accepted the comment. Turn it the way you like, turn it positive, negative, or keep your emotional pendulum in the center. I tried to remain centered. Objectively, Ricoh not showing up at an exhibition is neither a news or rumor. I assumer my level in english is sufficient to not be confused about what's news and what's rumors. Just close this thread, as it's going nowhere.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-17-2019 at 01:19 AM.
02-17-2019, 01:11 AM - 1 Like   #60
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Has anyone asked himself the question : why more and more car companies were not anymore attending car exhibition shows ?

Has anyone asked himself the question : why more industries were leaving UK before tomorrows brexit cataclysm ?

For the sole reason that they see no more business interest.

Also @Nebulous your analysis just omit to adress the alltime 21st century digital "niche market" of Pentax, as a "low R&D niche player".
Shifting to mirrorless while everyone is heading into this overcrowded market would be fatal for Ricoh Imaging.
Furthermore, we will soon (i guess in about 12 to 18 months) count the loosers of the current FF ml race.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 02-17-2019 at 02:03 AM.
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