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03-20-2019, 10:25 AM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
You make the gear work for you, not the other way around, you are a real photog, that's why. But some of us (including me) are conditioned by gear (I can take that shot if I don't have the new lens not yet released...).
no, actually same photo looks better when it has been taken with latest and biggest lens.

03-20-2019, 11:08 AM - 7 Likes   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
no, actually same photo looks better when it has been taken with latest and biggest lens.
The way I see how cameras for photography have evolved in 20 years:
- a lot of discussions went online, along with arguing, bashing, fanboyism, without much content relevant to photography per say
- cameras and lenses have been loaded with more and more electronics, more software and more mega of smaller pixels, sensor size remained small
- camera equipment with popular sensor size (24x36) are expensive, and a little larger costs a kidney and true medium format costs as much as a brand new BMW berlin
- camera/lens value drops faster than ever before, it's getting closer and closer to consumer electronics
- as soon as the new camera model with new gadgets is out, no one wants the previous model that does 99% of the same 14bits digital images
- a number of senior people have tremendous know-how but that know-how will be gone because the younger generations are aligned with DPReview excel awards decided if the camera does 4K and has 500 AF points....
- it is not possible to take images with less than 300 AF points and 10 frames per seconds anymore
- in the meantime, a number of b&m shops, photography studios and labs have closed
- the volume of photographs uploaded online has dramatically increased (thanks to more and more frames per seconds)
- the quality of content/composition hasn't increased, eventually decreased, it's quantity of snapshots taken in a hurry at high frame rates
- the null cost of development of a a digital photograph made it free to upload photographs for which no one would have paid a cent to a film lab to develop on even post card size paper
- yet, more of the same lenses are needed due to change of lens mounts, for use again with the same 14bits digital sensors, and camera models obsolete in less than 3 years
- good photos printed on quality paper at decent sizes is becoming not so common, at least much much less common than 45Megapixels photographs partially displayed on 1920x1080 or 3840x2160 displays...
== End Of Rant ==

Last edited by biz-engineer; 03-20-2019 at 11:18 AM.
03-20-2019, 11:39 AM - 1 Like   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
no, actually same photo looks better when it has been taken with latest and biggest lens.
Your comment depends on two thoughts
(1) what does "better" mean?
(2) does "better" really matter?

Suppose I were able to use a 50mm lens to take a photo, and had used my Takumar 50mm f/1.4 lens to take a photo with my K-30; in what ways would the new "Fat Fifty" lens be better?? When I take a photo, I compose it so that the major subject is near the center, where the Takumar is very good - I would rather have the edges a tad out-of-focus to take emphasis away from that part of the photo, and the "Fat Fifty" wouldn't be helpful at all. I have a fairly small camera bag; in order to carry the "Fat Fifty" I would have to leave one of my other lenses at home - is the "Fat Fifty" that good, especially taking into account that I might not want that focal length at all during the jaunt? In looking at photos of the "Fat Fifty", I don't see an aperture ring, which would limit its usefulness to me, because the aperture control has failed in my K-30 so I would always have to mount the "Fat Fifty" on my KP - so I would be unable to have my 55-300 PLM mounted at the same time ... I would have to mount my Sigma 70-300 on my K-30. Putting all this together, I'm having a hard time spending $997 to purchase the "Fat Fifty" - I really doubt it is the best 50mm lens for me, I'd rather donate the funds to a local "rescue mission" or to relief efforts in flood-ravaged Nebraska.
03-20-2019, 12:24 PM - 1 Like   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The way I see how cameras for photography have evolved in 20 years:
- a lot of discussions went online, along with arguing, bashing, fanboyism, without much content relevant to photography per say
- cameras and lenses have been loaded with more and more electronics, more software and more mega of smaller pixels, sensor size remained small
- camera equipment with popular sensor size (24x36) are expensive, and a little larger costs a kidney and true medium format costs as much as a brand new BMW berlin
- camera/lens value drops faster than ever before, it's getting closer and closer to consumer electronics
- as soon as the new camera model with new gadgets is out, no one wants the previous model that does 99% of the same 14bits digital images
- a number of senior people have tremendous know-how but that know-how will be gone because the younger generations are aligned with DPReview excel awards decided if the camera does 4K and has 500 AF points....
- it is not possible to take images with less than 300 AF points and 10 frames per seconds anymore
- in the meantime, a number of b&m shops, photography studios and labs have closed
- the volume of photographs uploaded online has dramatically increased (thanks to more and more frames per seconds)
- the quality of content/composition hasn't increased, eventually decreased, it's quantity of snapshots taken in a hurry at high frame rates
- the null cost of development of a a digital photograph made it free to upload photographs for which no one would have paid a cent to a film lab to develop on even post card size paper
- yet, more of the same lenses are needed due to change of lens mounts, for use again with the same 14bits digital sensors, and camera models obsolete in less than 3 years
- good photos printed on quality paper at decent sizes is becoming not so common, at least much much less common than 45Megapixels photographs partially displayed on 1920x1080 or 3840x2160 displays...
== End Of Rant ==
Oops, opened wrong box there...It was ment to be 'sarcastic'.



QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Your comment depends on two thoughts
(1) what does "better" mean?
(2) does "better" really matter?

Suppose I were able to use a 50mm lens to take a photo, and had used my Takumar 50mm f/1.4 lens to take a photo with my K-30; in what ways would the new "Fat Fifty" lens be better?? When I take a photo, I compose it so that the major subject is near the center, where the Takumar is very good - I would rather have the edges a tad out-of-focus to take emphasis away from that part of the photo, and the "Fat Fifty" wouldn't be helpful at all. I have a fairly small camera bag; in order to carry the "Fat Fifty" I would have to leave one of my other lenses at home - is the "Fat Fifty" that good, especially taking into account that I might not want that focal length at all during the jaunt? In looking at photos of the "Fat Fifty", I don't see an aperture ring, which would limit its usefulness to me, because the aperture control has failed in my K-30 so I would always have to mount the "Fat Fifty" on my KP - so I would be unable to have my 55-300 PLM mounted at the same time ... I would have to mount my Sigma 70-300 on my K-30. Putting all this together, I'm having a hard time spending $997 to purchase the "Fat Fifty" - I really doubt it is the best 50mm lens for me, I'd rather donate the funds to a local "rescue mission" or to relief efforts in flood-ravaged Nebraska.
Yea, fat fifty is nothing! there is 55/0,95, there is G135/2, there will be ... lot more. Does it make difference. Yes. 'that much'? well it depends of a lot of things. As you had those 2 questions your self. Great photographer will gain that couple % of increased performance, if they need better AF and superb sharpness and controlled Dof(this means that old takumar is quite good, but not consistent, and has flaws), ect. you pay for. But much of it is also 'ooh and aah' of new shiny thing. I have seen examples from that fat fifty in good hands, and yes. It does look really nice, still thinking of replacing my DA*55...

03-20-2019, 12:58 PM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
Yea, fat fifty is nothing! there is 55/0,95, there is G135/2, there will be ... lot more. Does it make difference. Yes. 'that much'? well it depends of a lot of things. As you had those 2 questions your self. Great photographer will gain that couple % of increased performance, if they need better AF and superb sharpness and controlled Dof(this means that old takumar is quite good, but not consistent, and has flaws), ect. you pay for. But much of it is also 'ooh and aah' of new shiny thing. I have seen examples from that fat fifty in good hands, and yes. It does look really nice, still thinking of replacing my DA*55...
Please show where I said " 'Fat Fifty' is nothing" {hint, I didn't}. It is a specialized tool for specialized situations. Your comment above seems to agree with that - I'm glad we agree. In the meantime, I will continue to devote bag space to general purpose lenses. My hope is that Pentax will also develop more general purpose lenses - KAF4 mount to replace older variants - which will support sales of FF cameras.
03-20-2019, 05:16 PM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I would be unable to have my 55-300 PLM mounted at the same time ... I would have to mount my Sigma 70-300 on my K-30. Putting all this together, I'm having a hard time spending $997 to purchase the "Fat Fifty" - I really doubt it is the best 50mm lens for me, I'd rather donate the funds to a local "rescue mission" or to relief efforts in flood-ravaged Nebraska.
Assuming here that you’re unwilling to use the hacked K-50 firmware? It does sound like Ricoh couldn’t make a better 50mm lens for your needs anyway, right?

I have pretty minority tastes in that I want an AW lens with an aperture ring so I can use the same lens for digital and film, which is eiher impossible or so niche an interest that it might as well be. A lens has to be particularly special for me to give up the aperture ring.

I’ve been itching for the D FA 24-70, but then I couldn’t use it on film, and the reviews are decent (but not superb), and it sounds like the weathersealing is not necessarily up to D FA* standards. So, I’ve just been using what I’ve got (fairly sucessfully). I do often wish my 70-200 D FA* and LX could meet, even if it was stuck wide open.
03-20-2019, 05:46 PM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithedreamer Quote
Assuming here that you’re unwilling to use the hacked K-50 firmware? It does sound like Ricoh couldn’t make a better 50mm lens for your needs anyway, right?
The "hacked" firmware would enable me to use the PLM lens, but there are so many things that could go wrong that I decided not to go that route. Actually, I've largely given up on prime lenses, even though they can come 'more perfect'. My Canon Elan was kitted with a zoom lens in 1995, and I have found that zoom fits my style so much better since it decouples choice of perspective and choice of framing.

QuoteQuote:
I have pretty minority tastes in that I want an AW lens with an aperture ring so I can use the same lens for digital and film, which is eiher impossible or so niche an interest that it might as well be. A lens has to be particularly special for me to give up the aperture ring.

I’ve been itching for the D FA 24-70, but then I couldn’t use it on film, and the reviews are decent (but not superb), and it sounds like the weathersealing is not necessarily up to D FA* standards. So, I’ve just been using what I’ve got (fairly sucessfully). I do often wish my 70-200 D FA* and LX could meet, even if it was stuck wide open.
Right now, as shown by my signature photo, I am using a FA 28-105 lens as the primary lens on my K-30. It has less range than the 18-105, and it's not WR or AW, but it is a fine Jun Hirakawa lens, and it meets my needs the few times I use that camera. I use the 50mm Takumar as primary lens on my Super Program the even fewer times I go back to film
03-20-2019, 05:55 PM - 1 Like   #218
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I absolutely believe a photograph taken with DA*50/1.4 is more pleasing to look at than the same photo taken with [_____________________].
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Your comment depends on two thoughts
(1) what does "better" mean?
(2) does "better" really matter?

Suppose I were able to use a 50mm lens to take a photo, and had used my Takumar 50mm f/1.4 lens to take a photo with my K-30; in what ways would the new "Fat Fifty" lens be better?? When I take a photo, I compose it so that the major subject is near the center, where the Takumar is very good - I would rather have the edges a tad out-of-focus to take emphasis away from that part of the photo, and the "Fat Fifty" wouldn't be helpful at all. I have a fairly small camera bag; in order to carry the "Fat Fifty" I would have to leave one of my other lenses at home - is the "Fat Fifty" that good, especially taking into account that I might not want that focal length at all during the jaunt? In looking at photos of the "Fat Fifty", I don't see an aperture ring, which would limit its usefulness to me, because the aperture control has failed in my K-30 so I would always have to mount the "Fat Fifty" on my KP - so I would be unable to have my 55-300 PLM mounted at the same time ... I would have to mount my Sigma 70-300 on my K-30. Putting all this together, I'm having a hard time spending $997 to purchase the "Fat Fifty" - I really doubt it is the best 50mm lens for me, I'd rather donate the funds to a local "rescue mission" or to relief efforts in flood-ravaged Nebraska.


03-20-2019, 10:42 PM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Please show where I said " 'Fat Fifty' is nothing" {hint, I didn't}. It is a specialized tool for specialized situations. Your comment above seems to agree with that - I'm glad we agree. In the meantime, I will continue to devote bag space to general purpose lenses. My hope is that Pentax will also develop more general purpose lenses - KAF4 mount to replace older variants - which will support sales of FF cameras.
Let me re phrase, What I ment with fat fifty of being 'nothing' was that there are much bigger lenses.

edit: So it was not against you.

Last edited by repaap; 03-20-2019 at 11:21 PM. Reason: pinpointing reasons
03-21-2019, 12:21 AM - 1 Like   #220
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Every time the word "better" appears it is purely, 100% based on subjective opinion.

While there are attributes, which can be measured objectively ("mine is 45 cm and yours is only 5 cm") there are two things which can never ever be objective:
a) selecting and choosing which of the hundreds of attributes are relevant criteria at all (e.g. is Bayer versus XTrans a criterion or only some attribute nobody cares about?)
b) prioritizing and weighing of criteria ("mine goes 200 mph but yours has 12 cylinders").

That is why nobody on this planet has the right to say which lens or camera is "best" or "better" in general or for anyone else but him.
If Joe decides that a smartphone camera is better than a Phase One he is absolutely right. And if Kathy decides the other way around she is right as well.
03-21-2019, 02:28 AM - 7 Likes   #221
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There are a few things that we should keep in mind.

(1) The point of photography is creating images, not collecting gear.

(2) All current cameras on the market are capable of creating images.

(3) It is often enjoyable to purchase and shoot with new lenses, that is lenses that are new to me (they can very well be old, used lenses).

(4) More modern lens designs do tend to focus faster and have less fringing. This can be worth it to some photographers.

(5) Most of us do not really "need" new lenses or camera bodies.

(6) As long as you have adequate funds, it is OK to purchase camera gear that you don't need (but still really want to own).
03-21-2019, 02:52 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
(2) All current cameras on the market are capable of creating images.
I've shot pixel shift frames from my living room window, with K1 DFA28-105 at f4.0, f5.6... up to f40. Added a little un-sharp masking on the full size jpeg output, man...at f5.6 the detail and cleanliness at 100% the best I've ever seen of any full frame image, and I've not done it with a prime lens, I've done it with the kit lens!, clinical look by the way (too perfect). I guess the only way to get better IQ is to buy a medium format system at this point.
03-21-2019, 03:02 AM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I've shot pixel shift frames from my living room window, with K1 DFA28-105 at f4.0, f5.6... up to f40. Added a little un-sharp masking on the full size jpeg output, man...at f5.6 the detail and cleanliness at 100% the best I've ever seen of any full frame image, and I've not done it with a prime lens, I've done it with the kit lens!, clinical look by the way (too perfect). I guess the only way to get better IQ is to buy a medium format system at this point.
To me, more often it is better to spend your money on a trip somewhere rather than on more gear. I know that if I bought a DFA *50 and didn't go anywhere else, I would still have the same sort of photos I get around here. I can get by with a K-01 for landscape purposes if I need to and often do so.

My wife does shoot weddings and so having lenses that focus faster and quieter is a benefit to her and lenses that require less work post processing saves her time editing images after the fact.
03-21-2019, 03:32 AM - 1 Like   #224
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I was asked to give a photography workshop for school kids. Age between 7-13. I said than minimun requierement is a camera. If not for everyone, but atleast one for each pair. School had iPads. I said cool, let’s do it. (Money is nice too) but I also knew that there is a lot one can use iPad of cellphone for. Atleast we can explore different way to see and capture interesting things around us. My method is that there is hundereds of things just around you. Look for light and shadow, interesting form, leading lines, symmetry/asymmetry ect. You can adjust exposure quite easy too.

What happens when you get better gear. If you don’t have tools in your head to cope with it, nothing happens. If you have skills, A lot can happen. Sometimes people travels other side of the world to take exactly same sunset photos that they can do at home(normal tourist shots with your feet in sand and amazing blue sky).

Also seeing something interesting and taking interesting photo of that is not the same thing.

New gear is good, it keeps wheels turning. Finding your own style of shooting is good too.
03-21-2019, 04:32 AM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Your comment depends on two thoughts
(1) what does "better" mean?
(2) does "better" really matter?

Suppose I were able to use a 50mm lens to take a photo, and had used my Takumar 50mm f/1.4 lens to take a photo with my K-30; in what ways would the new "Fat Fifty" lens be better?? When I take a photo, I compose it so that the major subject is near the center, where the Takumar is very good - I would rather have the edges a tad out-of-focus to take emphasis away from that part of the photo, and the "Fat Fifty" wouldn't be helpful at all. I have a fairly small camera bag; in order to carry the "Fat Fifty" I would have to leave one of my other lenses at home - is the "Fat Fifty" that good, especially taking into account that I might not want that focal length at all during the jaunt? In looking at photos of the "Fat Fifty", I don't see an aperture ring, which would limit its usefulness to me, because the aperture control has failed in my K-30 so I would always have to mount the "Fat Fifty" on my KP - so I would be unable to have my 55-300 PLM mounted at the same time ... I would have to mount my Sigma 70-300 on my K-30. Putting all this together, I'm having a hard time spending $997 to purchase the "Fat Fifty" - I really doubt it is the best 50mm lens for me, I'd rather donate the funds to a local "rescue mission" or to relief efforts in flood-ravaged Nebraska.
I'd encourage everyone to go look at a Flickr group for something like the 18-55 kit lens. There is no shortage of pictures on the first page that I would love to have taken, and they're all with that humble kit lens and something like an APS-C K-50 that someone probably bought for 1/2 or 1/3rd the cost of the fat fifty by itself.

Pentax probably would prefer you don't spend too much time thinking over this, lest you come to the conclusion that in 80-90% of use cases a $40 lens will do just about as well as an $1100 one. It's that kind of observation that's pretty well convinced me I don't need to go buy a 20-40 or a 16-85 for an upcoming trip, but instead I'll stick with the kit if it's rainy, and maybe use a fraction of the spare cash on that 21mm LTD I've been wanting to fill out my set of primes.
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