[reh321]

Isn't this all a wishful thinking exercise on this forum? People make posts like this for fun, I wasn't under an impression that posting my wishes here would affect development of the new camera. I simply replied to this thread with my wishlist, with full understanding that it's basically pointless and I'm just participating in a community activity. Same as people posting under "Firmware wishes", or "What lens do you want next", or "Should Pentax make a mirrorless God damn camera". See what I mean?

And there's only like two people that I have an issue with on this forum since I joined. Well, three now.

As a K-30 owner, who has dealt with the Dark Image Syndrome, I thought this was a serious issue for you.
If I were having the kinds of problems you describe, it would be more than an exercise for me - I would be desperate for means to get consistently good images.

Yawn, you may continue "having fun" if you want to - but it is past my bed-time.

[awscreo]

As a K-30 owner, who has dealt with the Dark Image Syndrome, I thought this was a serious issue for you.
If I were having the kinds of problems you describe, it would be more than an exercise for me - I would be desperate for means to get consistently good images.

Yawn, you may continue "having fun" if you want to - but it is past my bed-time.

It was an issue two years ago. Now it's just something that I live with, and it's not going to be resolved in my particular case.

You thought this thread is some sort of petition to pentax engineers?)) lol

[biz-engineer]

You thought this thread is some sort of petition to pentax engineers?)) lol

I guess Pentax engineers were aware of shutter shock since they design cameras, able to measure it, as they have added EFCS via firmware, and possibly improved in the K1 Mk II.

[totsmuyco]

For the K5/K3 series, you couldn't easily quantify the effect of the shutter on sharpness, because electronic shutter did not exist for models prior to the K1. You could compare same images at various shutter speeds... but then camera settings were changed so it was hard to conclude anything. The electronic shutter that allows the absolute maximum possible sharpness for a given lens, now makes people unhappy when they can't use the electronic shutter. It's a matter of expectations.

Ok thanks. I'll deal with this when I'll have a new camera with an electronic shutter. In the meantime, I'll just keep shooting. Man now I'm in a bad mood. I'm not that mobile due to plantar fasciitis. Grrrr, it's irritating. I haven't gone out shooting the streets for 2 weeks. Ughhhhhh!!!! I miss my photo sessions!!!!!

[Gimbal]

For the K5/K3 series, you couldn't easily quantify the effect of the shutter on sharpness, because electronic shutter did not exist for models prior to the K1. You could compare same images at various shutter speeds... but then camera settings were changed so it was hard to conclude anything. The electronic shutter that allows the absolute maximum possible sharpness for a given lens, now makes people unhappy when they can't use the electronic shutter. It's a matter of expectations.

But you could still pixel peep and see if the image was sharp or not. So no big difference there imho.

[awscreo]

I guess Pentax engineers were aware of shutter shock since they design cameras, able to measure it, as they have added EFCS via firmware, and possibly improved in the K1 Mk II.

so it does exist and I'm not just making up things? at least there's that I guess..

[reh321]

Isn't this all a wishful thinking exercise on this forum? People make posts like this for fun, I wasn't under an impression that posting my wishes here would affect development of the new camera.

It was an issue two years ago. Now it's just something that I live with, and it's not going to be resolved in my particular case.

You thought this thread is some sort of petition to pentax engineers?)) lol

Excuse me!!
Most people who post like you have been are desperately looking for help - they aren't just "baying in the wind", posting for fun.

[awscreo]

Excuse me!!
Most people who post like you have been are desperately looking for help - they aren't just "baying in the wind", posting for fun.

Do you speak for most people now?
You think people posting under posts such as this one, or "what firmware updates you'd like to receive" are super serious and 100% expect their wishes to come true?

[reh321]

to be honest, I see no value of continuing this conversation. Not with just you, but with anyone at all. So respectfully, let's just stop. I'm going to unsub from this thread

That was ten hours ago, and yet you keep posting and posting .... seven more posts and counting.

[awscreo]

That was ten hours ago, and yet you keep posting and posting .... seven more posts and counting.

I'm sorry, I get heated and baited, it's my weakness and I suffer greatly due to loss of valuable time arguing with people like you over essentially nothing. But I just can't let go when people accuse me of nonsense.

[reh321]

Do you speak for most people now?
You think people posting under posts such as this one, or "what firmware updates you'd like to receive" are super serious and 100% expect their wishes to come true?

Where did I ever claim to be speaking for anyone other than myself???

I'm merely telling you what my experience has been.
I've seen a number of people who write as you do - get no solution, and stop - not for the hour, not for the day, but apparently for ever.

[normhead]

Trying to emulate shutter shock was one of the least gratifying things I've done in a while.

And as it turns out it's pretty much irrelevant to my photgraphy. I had to do things I don't normally do just to try and find it. During my tests my sharpest images was at 1/15s, suggesting shutter shock was a thing. But the images I got a 1/160 were acceptable.

If this image is unacceptable to you, maybe you need to worry about shutter shock. If it meets your needs, don't give it a second thought. Until someone comes up with a scenario that I care about, and my largest prints are 42x30, shutter shiock is controlled well enough that it's not something i want to spend time thinking about. By the way, my image at 1/125 and 1/200 were both quite sharp. I'm guessing this is a camera by camera issue and that the existence and range vary camera by camera.

This according to the wisdom is a shutter shocked image, yet the detail is impressive. It's not a contrasty as some of the sequence I took, but still well within acceptable standards. And I was shooting in variable lifght so even that's not a 100% given. By the way, don't even try the "at that size thing, it's pixel peeper, click on the image and in flickr you can see it 1:1.


I'd like to see an example that shows me exactly what the shutter shock you've detected affects real images, not test charts.

That shutter shock might exist, it probably does, and it's probably always existed, but that it's significant to your real world images, that hasn't been established, and is probably a matter more related to personal standards of acceptability than any hard line in the sand.

That's why it irritates people. Even if you're right, even if there is shutter shock, it's well enough dampened most people don't care. One really picky person going on about their personal standards of acceptability.

I generally toss 50% to 90% of my images. Of my 650 keepers in my current library 150 are in the range 1/100-1/200. I see no evidence shutter shock has ruined a single image, so I'm putting it out of my mind, now and forever, and I'm betting I won't suffer for that. If you want to obsess on it and bring it up in every thread fine. But I personally am not willing to spend a single dime on improving shutter shock. It's within acceptable standards on my camera for my standards. I don't work around it and it doesn't cost me images.

I prefer to think about things that actually make a difference.

[awscreo]

Where did I ever claim to be speaking for anyone other than myself???

I'm merely telling you what my experience has been.
I've seen a number of people who write as you do - get no solution, and stop - not for the hour, not for the day, but apparently for ever.

Well the above post makes it seem that you know why most people post on this forum.

You have 0 experience with this particular issue, I don't even understand why you're arguing with me on this. You don't own the camera, what are you trying to prove to me right now?

As I said time and time again, I experience the issue with my particular combo, I'm not alone on this (see links above), I make it work for me and I stopped caring about it that much in my work flow due to using tripod and ES a vast majority of time when I use my K-1.

Last time I spoke on this was months ago, I know there's no solution for it due to it being either an engineering flaw, or a QC flaw, no amount of discussion will change what I have.



---------- Post added 04-23-19 at 10:40 AM ----------

Trying to emulate shutter shock was one of the least gratifying things I've done in a while.

And as it turns out it's pretty much irrelevant to my photgraphy. I had to do things I don't normally do just to try and find it. During my tests my sharpest images was at 1/15s, suggesting shutter shock was a thing. But the images I got a 1/160 were acceptable.

If this image is unacceptable to you, maybe you need to worry about shutter shock. If it meets your needs, don't give it a second thought. Until someone comes up with a scenario that I care about, and my largest prints are 42x30, shutter shiock is controlled well enough that it's not something i want to spend time thinking about. By the way, my image at 1/125 and 1/200 were both quite sharp. I'm guessing this is a camera by camera issue and that the existence and range vary camera by camera.

This according to the wisdom is a shutter shocked image, yet the detail is impressive. It's not a contrasty as some of the sequence I took, but still well within acceptable standards. And I was shooting in variable lifght so even that's not a 100% given.


I'd like to see an example that shows me exactly what the shutter shock you've detected affects real images, not test charts.

That shutter shock might exist, it probably does, and it's probably always existed, but that it's significant to your real world images, that hasn't been established, and is probably a matter more related to personal standards of acceptability than any hard line in the sand.

That's why it irritates people. Even if you're right, even if there is shutter shock, it's well enough dampened most people don't care. One really picky person going on about their personal standards of acceptability.

Norm, you're doing exactly the same thing just from the other side of the fence. If it's acceptable to you it does not mean that it has to be acceptable to me. You're talking about your personal standards, same as me. We have the same rights on this forum.

Funnily enough I do not even think about the issue that much as it doesn't affect my chosen workflow. But apparently people cannot let go of me merely mentioning it in my own personal wishlist for the K-1 III that doesn't even exist yet.

[normhead]

But apparently people cannot let go of me merely mentioning it in my own personal wishlist for the K-1 III that doesn't even exist yet.

Because most of us don't think it's an issue Pentax should be devoting money too. But my point about personal standards was not that I don't have them, in fact I pointed out I do.My point was it's not a universally acknowledged issue and as such, every time you mention it, those of us who disagree are going to make sure it's understood, it's not an issue for everyone, you don't have to pay attention to it if you're happy with your images, it's a niche issue, and there is very little understanding of the parameters under which it might occur.

So every time you say "it's a thing" people are going to point out "not for everyone". We don't want people obsessing about stuff they probably don't care about.
They have enough to care about without adding the irrelevant . And given the 60,000 users, and what? Maybe 10 at most? for whom it's an issue, odds are pretty good it's irrelevant.

We all know that Pentax and every camera maker have to have their engineering departments deal with shutter shock, the issue is do they have to do more in coming models? Some say yes, others say, there are more important things to address, please leave that until everything else is solved. Anyone posting one opinion is going to trigger people taking the opposite viewpoint. If you brought it up, then it's your issue. Don't complain because others chime in with different opinions. You don't have any right to have an opinion stand un-opposed. It's a forum. People have opinions. They post them. If you can't live with that, don't come to the forum.

Now if you stated "improving shutter shock is an issue that some of us care about even if most don't even notice it" I doubt you you'd get much argument. With controversial issues letting folks know you understand all sides of the issue limits opposing responses, because you've already noted their ambivalence, demonstrated you know where they're coming from, but that you still think the way you do.

[biz-engineer]

But I just can't let go when people accuse me of nonsense.

On my K1, with the D-FA28-105, testing shows that if 100% is total blur:
- shutter shock (1) accounts for approx. third of the blur
- approx. another third of the total blur is related to mirror kick (2)
- and another third is related to camera and lens motions (3) at shutter speeds slower or equal to the FL reciprocal.

That's why when using an heavier lenses such as the 15-30, 24-70 or 70-200 the amount of blur from (2) and (3) diminishes, (1) remains the smallest contributor.
When small lenses are used (2) and (3) become more prominent is what people confuse with (1: shutter shock).

It is important to distinguish the 3 causes of pixel blur in order to use camera setup and settings for optimal sharpness.
A photographer who aimed at blowing prints to XXL sizes 24"x36" may have interest to optimize his camera setup for optimal sharpness, or simple use a tripod and enable EFCS.

The Pentax K1 and K1 II offer increasing levels of exposures for optimal sharpness:

- normal mode
- normal mode with remote

- mirror lockup
- mirror lockup with remote

- 2 sec. timer (will close the lens aperture, then waiting 2 sec. before exposing the sensor)
- 2 sec. timer with remote (will close the lens aperture, then waiting 2 sec. before exposing the sensor)

- 2 sec. timer with SR (will close the lens aperture, keep the sensor stationary, waiting for 2 sec. , exposure the sensor while still maintaining the sensor in stationary position)
- 2 sec. timer with SR with remote (will close the lens aperture, keep the sensor stationary, waiting for 2 sec. , exposure the sensor while still maintaining the sensor in stationary position)

- 10 sec. timer w/o remote (will count 10 sec., keep the sensor stationary, then close the lens aperture and expose)
- 10 sec. timer with SR w/o remote (will count 10 sec., keep the sensor stationary, then close the lens aperture and expose)

- EFCS in LV mode
- EFCS in LV mode with 2 sec. delay
- EFCS in LV mode with 2 sec. delay and remote

- Pixel shift resolution in normal mode
- Pixel shift resolution in LV mode
- Pixel shift resolution in LV mode with 2 sec. delay (will close the lens aperture, count 2 sec. , then 4 x shifted exposures)
- Pixel shift resolution in LV mode with 2 sec. delay and remote (will close the lens aperture, count 2 sec. , then 4 x shifted exposures)

This is plenty of choice for getting the sharp images when optimal sharpness is a must have.

When I want best sharpness without PS, my favorite choice is: Tripod, wait a bit if the terrain in muddy, camera set EFCS enabled in Live view, 2 sec. timer, IR remote controlled., lens aperture f.5.6 => f11.
When I don't have a tripod, there is risk of subject motion or I want to use the OVF and still want the best sharpness, I enable 2 sec. timer, enable PS MC, RAW, shoot hand-held. In post, I disable PS MC => I get 1 frame captured electronically only. Do this.