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08-25-2009, 05:45 AM   #31
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Sorry for resurrecting the thread.

It was quoted as proof that Hoya doesn't own Tokina in another thread.

I found new information (not quoted here before) about Kenko-Tokina:
会社概要 株式会社ケンコー

Before it is gone, let me quote the contained info:
QuoteQuote:
■本社 ■ Head Office 東京都新宿区西落合3-9-19 3-9-19 Nishi-Ochiai, Shinjuku, Tokyo
TEL: 03-5982-1060 TEL: 03-5982-1060
■代表者 ■ President 代表取締役社長 山中 徹 President Yamanaka Tetsu
■設立 ■ Established 1957年(昭和32年)9月21日 September 21, 1957
■資本金 ■ Capital 1億円 100 million yen
■売上高 ■ Sales 102億円(平成20年度2月期) 10.2 billion yen (Fiscal year ended February)
■従業員数 ■ Employees 217名 217
■事業内容 ■ Business 写真用品・光学製品の製造と販売 Photographic equipment manufacturing and sales of optical products
■事務所 ■ Office 札幌・仙台・東京・名古屋・大阪・福岡・埼玉/日高他 Tokyo, Nagoya, Sapporo, Sendai, Saitama, Osaka and Fukuoka / Other Hidaka
■子会社 ■ Subsidiaries 株式会社トキナー Tokina Co., Ltd.
スリック株式会社 Slick Co.
THK<アメリカ・カリフォルニア> THK <California, USA "
PKC <フィリピン・セブ> PKC <Cebu, Philippines "
中山ケンコー<中国>、他11社 Kenko Nakayama, "China", another 11 companies
ケンコー本社近辺地図 Map near the headquarters Kenko
With only 217 employees and 100 million $ sales, I guess that a Hoya ownership of Kenko-Tokina is just aggregated in some generic capital or assets value which includes all shareholder value including all stock (2.5% of turnover only). And as a Ltd., Kenko-Tokina won't disclose its owners.

So, it may be true that Hoya owns Tokina as a figure on their assets lists.

08-25-2009, 06:08 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Sorry for resurrecting the thread.

It was quoted as proof that Hoya doesn't own Tokina in another thread.

I found new information (not quoted here before) about Kenko-Tokina:
会社概要 株式会社ケンコー

Before it is gone, let me quote the contained info:


With only 217 employees and 100 million $ sales, I guess that a Hoya ownership of Kenko-Tokina is just aggregated in some generic capital or assets value which includes all shareholder value including all stock (2.5% of turnover only). And as a Ltd., Kenko-Tokina won't disclose its owners.

So, it may be true that Hoya owns Tokina as a figure on their assets lists.
Sorry for being so slow, where do you see the Hoya-Tokina connection in this quote?
08-25-2009, 09:54 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Douglas_of_Sweden Quote
Sorry for being so slow, where do you see the Hoya-Tokina connection in this quote?
I don't see it.
The only thing I found is that Tokina is so small that we most lilely wouldn't see it even if it would be there.

I didn't say Hoya own Tokina as I really don't know.
08-25-2009, 08:29 PM   #34
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Maybe no smoking gun but...

I find it hard to believe this could be soooo far off base.
To reiterate:
Hideto Fukazawa, Director of Hoya’s Tokina Industrial Division, also pointed out that the new polarizer isn’t as dark as you might expect. In fact, it is significantly lighter in tint than its predecessor.
PopPhoto Flash: Hoya

And this one: Can we not interview correctly???
Pentax’s relationship with parent company Hoya was questioned, with Mr Iue replying that “Hoya is really serious about Pentax, as it’s a well-known consumer brand, which Hoya isn’t”. Mr Iue admitted that Hoya bought Pentax predominantly for their medical division and expertise, but they did also want the camera part too. Hoya firmly denied any plans to sell the Pentax photo division to Samsung or any other company, commenting that they had only just bought the company. Similarly, Hoya aren’t planning to sell the lens-maker Tokina, which they also own, or to merge it with Pentax.
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/pentax_and_samsung_partnership_not_perfect/

Don't quite understand the "mystery" around all this but this is about Japan business culture.....

More intertwining:
http://www.edvantek.com/PDFs/Tokina_FA_Catalog_V0_6_1%5B1%5D.pdf
November,1990
Established EYEMEC Co., Ltd. (capital: 10millionyen), a sales company
for contact lenses manufactured HOYA inc. Group.


http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1036&message=29528702


Last edited by jeffkrol; 08-25-2009 at 09:16 PM.
08-25-2009, 10:22 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Hoya aren稚 planning to sell the lens-maker Tokina, which they also own, or to merge it with Pentax.[/COLOR]
Pentax and Samsung Partnership Not Perfect | PhotographyBLOG
That is some good proof coming from an executive from Hoya. :-)
08-26-2009, 03:27 AM   #36
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Ok, so there is some consensus that Hoya owns Tokina but it doesn't show in official documents.

I only state it clearly because this thread was cited to prove the contrary ...



On a side note. The fact that Tokina is a 200 people / $100 million company clearly shows that a good lens maker doesn't necessarily have to be big. Somewhere else I've read that Tokina was founded in 1959 by Nikon optical engineers wanting to make zoom lenses.
08-26-2009, 06:47 AM   #37
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Possible legal structure of Tokina:
Kabushiki gaisha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Note pg29 of this pdf...
http://www.edvantek.com/PDFs/Tokina_FA_Catalog_V0_6_1%5B1%5D.pdf
Board members: President: Toru Yamanaka
Executive director: Ryoichi Kohno
Executive director: Tamotsu Odaka
Executive director: Tomohisa Miyashita
Executive director: Yuji Nakano
Executive director: Takeshi Tsurumi
Auditor: Isao Shiragami
Auditor: Akiko Yamanaka
Shareholder: Kenko Co., Ltd.
Bankers: UFJ Bank, Shinjyuku Branch Tokyo head office
Mizuho Bank Yaesu-dori and Machida North Exit Branches

Somewhere Hoya has there hooks in this company..... not sure where though.
"owning" in Japanese may not mean exactly the same as owning in the US

All we have to do is see Tokina's "Articles of Incorporation"......
08-26-2009, 08:03 AM   #38
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Good to see you uncovered the smoking gun

Good to see you uncovered the smoking gun concerning Hoya's ownership of Tokina.

The CEO of Hoya says Hoya owns Tokina and you uncovered the quote, so thats good enough for me.

Jeff as you are good at researching these things look thru the prior 8 Hoya quarterly statements ,before April 1 2008, of Hoya buyout of Pentax or "friendly merger" for Hoya Ceo statements to find some insight into Hoya's Ceo public view on Pentax Cameras division purchase versus buying the brand for its medical imaging and everything else Pentax logo'd. At same time look to Pentax statements when they were planning to release some 29 newly designed Pentax lenses in very near future. That was back when the roadmap held credibility for me. Anybody seen 1.4x SDM TC?

Anyways, this topic comes up regularly, maybe your Hoya Ceo quote will convince those pentaxians that refuse to believe Hoya owns Tokina. I'm not sure if this knowledge will make us better photographers but it should stop all the endless debates on who owns Tokina.

I recall the Tokina logo'd 10-17mm aps-c fisheye, 16-50mm 2.8, 50-135mm 2.8, all Tokina logo'd versions of pentax lenses got released many weeks ahead of pentax logo'd versions so I assumed Tokina had the upperhand in the "co-design" of these Pentax lenses and this was well ahead of Hoya's pentax brand buyout.









QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
I find it hard to believe this could be soooo far off base.
To reiterate:
Hideto Fukazawa, Director of Hoya’s Tokina Industrial Division, also pointed out that the new polarizer isn’t as dark as you might expect. In fact, it is significantly lighter in tint than its predecessor.
PopPhoto Flash: Hoya

And this one: Can we not interview correctly???
Pentax’s relationship with parent company Hoya was questioned, with Mr Iue replying that “Hoya is really serious about Pentax, as it’s a well-known consumer brand, which Hoya isn’t”. Mr Iue admitted that Hoya bought Pentax predominantly for their medical division and expertise, but they did also want the camera part too. Hoya firmly denied any plans to sell the Pentax photo division to Samsung or any other company, commenting that they had only just bought the company. Similarly, Hoya aren’t planning to sell the lens-maker Tokina, which they also own, or to merge it with Pentax.
Pentax and Samsung Partnership Not Perfect | PhotographyBLOG

Don't quite understand the "mystery" around all this but this is about Japan business culture.....

More intertwining:
http://www.edvantek.com/PDFs/Tokina_FA_Catalog_V0_6_1%5B1%5D.pdf
November,1990
Established EYEMEC Co., Ltd. (capital: 10millionyen), a sales company
for contact lenses manufactured HOYA inc. Group.


Re: addendum. Found Tokina's president.: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review


08-26-2009, 05:46 PM   #39
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For me nothing is cleared.

1) "Tokina Industrial Division" seems to be related to THK which distribute Tokina, Hoya, Kenko.

Hoya filters are made by Tokina. Kenko filters are identical to Hoya filters.

2) Who is Mr Iue? The quote Hoya aren’t planning to sell the lens-maker Tokina could be the journalist interpretation, it does not seem to be a direct quote.

That there are links between Kenko, Hoya, Pentax and Tokina is rather obvious. But Tokina's place is a bit mysterious. And I've yet to see a clear ownership, it seemed to me that they are privately owned with some strong ties with the above companies.

If you look at their lense catalog, they only have 2 that are not co-developed with Pentax (11-16 and 80-400). People have searched patents and it seems only the 12-24 is a Tokina design, the other lenses are designed by Pentax. A bit strange to have almost all their lenses designed by a bigger company. Of course this is secret but what exactly is the deal between Pentax and Tokina? BTW the DA 35mm macro is the only Limited available to Nikon and Canon mounts. Why not the other DA Limited? Why the 11-16mm is still not available to Pentax?
08-26-2009, 06:57 PM   #40
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does it really matter? they all just want our money...right?
08-26-2009, 08:28 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Why the 11-16mm is still not available to Pentax?
Good question! Pentax really do need something wider than the 16-50 in their premiium DA* line. Looks like there is a super tele coming up, but still no rumor of anything wider.
08-26-2009, 09:32 PM   #42
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Did Col. Mustard kill someone in the library with a candlestick or something? All this corporate intrigue and talk of smoking guns. You'd think it was about something that actually was important. Like tiddlywinks!

08-26-2009, 09:45 PM   #43
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. . .

Last edited by Blue; 08-26-2009 at 09:53 PM.
08-27-2009, 03:13 AM   #44
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Interesting research about Pentax and Tokina optical patents from one chinese Pentax user. Google translated.

From 2000 Tokina does not have any optical patent. All new Tokina lenses are designed by Pentax.

DFA 100 is of course based on FA 100 which is based on F100.
08-28-2009, 04:49 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ok, so there is some consensus that Hoya owns Tokina but it doesn't show in official documents.

I only state it clearly because this thread was cited to prove the contrary ...
Of course there is no consensus, because it is contradicted by the fact that Hoya never mentions its alleged ownership of Tokina or Kenko and it is also very unlikely from a business point of view. Why should Hoya integrate Pentax completely into its operations, but keep a second lensmaker as an affiliate? Why wouldn't they move the lens manufacturing to Vietnam, as they did with Pentax's? Why would they share only the optical design, but not the barrel design?

The false rumor that Hoya owns Tokina is nothing but a naive speculation and wishful thinking, based on a misinterpretation of the fact that Hoya licensed its brand for the Kenko filters and more misunderstandings by some journalists and forum writers, who use to cite each other in circular ways.
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