Could Ricoh make the camera without compromise? (Ricoh-Patent on PDAF and/or CD AF)

**sbh** · 05-31-2019, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

In the past I suggested that Ricoh could make a camera with dual VF: one OVF in the center, and one EVF in the corner, so that the user can use both eyes, some kind of stereo VF. The user wouldn't even have the change the view finder, he would be able to switch between the two different view finder tech with the blink of an eye.

Looking with two eyes seems a bit impractical to me.

A switchable vf would be nice. Basically a OVF where the screen of the EVF could slide in if the user wants to switch. IDK if that is technically feasable. Might make the hump really big and look awkward. But it could be a good solution on the way to a true hybrid vf.

Or „just“ a click-on EVF next to the OVF.

Kunzite · 06-01-2019, 12:18 AM - **1 Like**

You folks are discussing ways to compromise the camera in order to include something I do not want

There can be no EVF-next-to-OVF; nor sliding mechanism or other such things that would almost double the size of the pentaprism housing.
The solution would have to be much simpler. Perhaps as simple as sticking a display system to the pentaprism.

**Rondec** · 06-01-2019, 03:00 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kunzite

You folks are discussing ways to compromise the camera in order to include something I do not want

There can be no EVF-next-to-OVF; nor sliding mechanism or other such things that would almost double the size of the pentaprism housing.
The solution would have to be much simpler. Perhaps as simple as sticking a display system to the pentaprism.

Well, I think the whole point is how can Pentax do something to make their next cameras stand out. If they could do some type of hybrid OVF/EVF or could put some type of module in the auto focus system that would do eye auto focus, that certainly would help. Some of the ideas on this thread are clearly not feasible.

That said, I would hesitate to make too much of a big deal about the viewfinder. I just don't think most photographers focus that much on that and buy more based on other features that they think they will need (price/megapixels/frame rate/video) and the viewfinder is more of an afterthought. The only people who think about viewfinders a lot are the faithful posters on Forums like this one.

Kunzite · 06-01-2019, 03:13 AM

Right; a hybrid viewfinder is far from the first thing I'd improve on Pentax DSLRs. For me - I don't care at all about video - it's just a gimmick; at best it might prove somewhat useful.
IMO it's only pushed so much because of the EVF hype, rather than a real need.

Performance, including autofocus, is. Better tracking, more AF points covering a larger area, more decisive target lock and sensitive AF-C.

**Rondec** · 06-01-2019, 03:24 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kunzite

Right; a hybrid viewfinder is far from the first thing I'd improve on Pentax DSLRs. For me - I don't care at all about video - it's just a gimmick; at best it might prove somewhat useful.
IMO it's only pushed so much because of the EVF hype, rather than a real need.

Performance, including autofocus, is. Better tracking, more AF points covering a larger area, more decisive target lock and sensitive AF-C.

Hopefully they are working on all those things and more. Pentax needs to improve all areas, even video. The hope is to have a camera that fits more photographers and that means that there will be features that some of us won't use to increase broader sales.

Kunzite · 06-01-2019, 03:46 AM

Oh, I'm fine with improvements on video - even if I'm not using it; if I was using it then perhaps I'd be pushing for EVF/hybrid viewfinder.

biz-engineer · 06-01-2019, 04:01 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Hopefully they are working on all those things and more. Pentax needs to improve all areas, even video.

I guess never generations of camera will generally work faster, that's the trend we have seen with camera models of the past.

Kunzite · 06-01-2019, 04:09 AM - **1 Like**

At least the tiny GR III can write to the SD card at an average rate of over 60MB/sec.

biz-engineer · 06-01-2019, 04:55 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

At least the tiny GR III can write to the SD card at an average rate of over 60MB/sec.

The internal memory of the GR is a genius idea, all cameras should have that.

Kunzite · 06-01-2019, 05:01 AM

Too bad it can't be used in parallel with the SD card.
Write RAWs to the larger SD card, JPEGs to the internal memory - and you'd have something if the SD fails. In a camera with a single SD slot.

MetalUndivided · 06-06-2019, 12:56 AM

Can someone explain to me why is it technically impossible to do a MILC-like hybrid AF system by sending the part of the light that goes to the AF module onto the main sensor instead?

Kunzite · 06-06-2019, 01:17 AM

Part of the light that goes to the AF module, that would be complicated. All of it though, it's even simpler than the current double mirror arrangement.
So removing the dedicated AF module, and using the main imaging sensor for AF (and metering, why not?) while keeping the optical viewfinder is simpler. I'm not sure how well it would work in low light though; a stop disadvantage compared to a MILC design?

Mistral75 · 06-06-2019, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by MetalUndivided

Can someone explain to me why is it technically impossible to do a MILC-like hybrid AF system by sending the part of the light that goes to the AF module onto the main sensor instead?

That would be perfectly possible with a semi-transparent mirror as in the Sony SLT and Canon Pellix cameras.

The difference with a conventional SLR would be that the entirety of the mirror would have to be semi-transparent whereas the sub-mirror / secondary mirror of a conventional SLR only occupies part of the image area.

Source of the illustration above: Autofocus

reh321 · 06-06-2019, 06:06 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

The internal memory of the GR is a genius idea, all cameras should have that.

At one time, internal memory was common in all consumer-grade cameras.

**TwoUptons** · 06-06-2019, 08:00 AM

Originally posted by reh321

At one time, internal memory was common in all consumer-grade cameras.

At one time, internal memory was all you had... for consumer or pro cameras...

I’m not a great fan as it generally requires a cord to get images off the camera, so it messes up my workflow...

But it’s handy for a camera with only a single card slot...

-Eric

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
16-50 gross AF inaccuracy in PDAF - only in some AF points?	rrstuff	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	9	11-19-2016 11:29 AM
Ricoh Patent: IR sensors to improve AF accuracy	JPT	Pentax News and Rumors	96	02-04-2016 08:54 AM
Ricoh patent: Sensor AF using subpixel pattern	JPT	Pentax News and Rumors	7	12-30-2015 10:53 AM
Sony PDAF Patent	Winder	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	7	09-24-2015 11:16 AM
Comparing PDAF & CDAF and other AF stuff	dosdan	General Photography	4	04-27-2015 06:17 PM

05-31-2019, 11:20 PM	#46
sbh Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Black Forest, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 849	Originally posted by biz-engineer In the past I suggested that Ricoh could make a camera with dual VF: one OVF in the center, and one EVF in the corner, so that the user can use both eyes, some kind of stereo VF. The user wouldn't even have the change the view finder, he would be able to switch between the two different view finder tech with the blink of an eye. Looking with two eyes seems a bit impractical to me. A switchable vf would be nice. Basically a OVF where the screen of the EVF could slide in if the user wants to switch. IDK if that is technically feasable. Might make the hump really big and look awkward. But it could be a good solution on the way to a true hybrid vf. Or „just“ a click-on EVF next to the OVF.

06-01-2019, 12:18 AM - 1 Like	#47
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	You folks are discussing ways to compromise the camera in order to include something I do not want There can be no EVF-next-to-OVF; nor sliding mechanism or other such things that would almost double the size of the pentaprism housing. The solution would have to be much simpler. Perhaps as simple as sticking a display system to the pentaprism.

06-01-2019, 03:00 AM - 1 Like	#48
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by Kunzite You folks are discussing ways to compromise the camera in order to include something I do not want There can be no EVF-next-to-OVF; nor sliding mechanism or other such things that would almost double the size of the pentaprism housing. The solution would have to be much simpler. Perhaps as simple as sticking a display system to the pentaprism. Well, I think the whole point is how can Pentax do something to make their next cameras stand out. If they could do some type of hybrid OVF/EVF or could put some type of module in the auto focus system that would do eye auto focus, that certainly would help. Some of the ideas on this thread are clearly not feasible. That said, I would hesitate to make too much of a big deal about the viewfinder. I just don't think most photographers focus that much on that and buy more based on other features that they think they will need (price/megapixels/frame rate/video) and the viewfinder is more of an afterthought. The only people who think about viewfinders a lot are the faithful posters on Forums like this one.

06-01-2019, 03:13 AM	#49
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Right; a hybrid viewfinder is far from the first thing I'd improve on Pentax DSLRs. For me - I don't care at all about video - it's just a gimmick; at best it might prove somewhat useful. IMO it's only pushed so much because of the EVF hype, rather than a real need. Performance, including autofocus, is. Better tracking, more AF points covering a larger area, more decisive target lock and sensitive AF-C.

06-01-2019, 03:24 AM - 1 Like	#50
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by Kunzite Right; a hybrid viewfinder is far from the first thing I'd improve on Pentax DSLRs. For me - I don't care at all about video - it's just a gimmick; at best it might prove somewhat useful. IMO it's only pushed so much because of the EVF hype, rather than a real need. Performance, including autofocus, is. Better tracking, more AF points covering a larger area, more decisive target lock and sensitive AF-C. Hopefully they are working on all those things and more. Pentax needs to improve all areas, even video. The hope is to have a camera that fits more photographers and that means that there will be features that some of us won't use to increase broader sales.

06-01-2019, 03:46 AM	#51
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Oh, I'm fine with improvements on video - even if I'm not using it; if I was using it then perhaps I'd be pushing for EVF/hybrid viewfinder.

06-01-2019, 04:01 AM	#52
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by Rondec Hopefully they are working on all those things and more. Pentax needs to improve all areas, even video. I guess never generations of camera will generally work faster, that's the trend we have seen with camera models of the past.

06-01-2019, 04:09 AM - 1 Like	#53
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	At least the tiny GR III can write to the SD card at an average rate of over 60MB/sec.

06-01-2019, 04:55 AM	#54
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by Kunzite At least the tiny GR III can write to the SD card at an average rate of over 60MB/sec. The internal memory of the GR is a genius idea, all cameras should have that.

06-01-2019, 05:01 AM	#55
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Too bad it can't be used in parallel with the SD card. Write RAWs to the larger SD card, JPEGs to the internal memory - and you'd have something if the SD fails. In a camera with a single SD slot.

06-06-2019, 12:56 AM	#56
MetalUndivided Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Irkutsk, Russia Posts: 134	Can someone explain to me why is it technically impossible to do a MILC-like hybrid AF system by sending the part of the light that goes to the AF module onto the main sensor instead?

06-06-2019, 01:17 AM	#57
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Part of the light that goes to the AF module, that would be complicated. All of it though, it's even simpler than the current double mirror arrangement. So removing the dedicated AF module, and using the main imaging sensor for AF (and metering, why not?) while keeping the optical viewfinder is simpler. I'm not sure how well it would work in low light though; a stop disadvantage compared to a MILC design?

06-06-2019, 01:20 AM	#58
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by MetalUndivided Can someone explain to me why is it technically impossible to do a MILC-like hybrid AF system by sending the part of the light that goes to the AF module onto the main sensor instead? That would be perfectly possible with a semi-transparent mirror as in the Sony SLT and Canon Pellix cameras. The difference with a conventional SLR would be that the entirety of the mirror would have to be semi-transparent whereas the sub-mirror / secondary mirror of a conventional SLR only occupies part of the image area. Source of the illustration above: Autofocus

06-06-2019, 06:06 AM - 1 Like	#59
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,177	Originally posted by biz-engineer The internal memory of the GR is a genius idea, all cameras should have that. At one time, internal memory was common in all consumer-grade cameras.

06-06-2019, 08:00 AM	#60
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,213	Originally posted by reh321 At one time, internal memory was common in all consumer-grade cameras. At one time, internal memory was all you had... for consumer or pro cameras... I’m not a great fan as it generally requires a cord to get images off the camera, so it messes up my workflow... But it’s handy for a camera with only a single card slot... -Eric