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06-17-2019, 05:21 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Unfortunately, the talk goes both ways. The only MILC I have right now is my Q-7, and once I purchased the KP I have no intention of purchasing another, but people repeatedly say things here that are one-sided ..... there are good reasons for choosing MILC, things Pentax users miss by not having MILC available, and I feel they should at least be expressed even if some here will just not hear.
Rondec was correct, my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek. This is a photography forum, yes a Pentax forum, but Pentax has made all kinds of cameras and the speculation about next steps shouldn't be limited to traditional DSLRs with traditional OVFs. Obviously everyone should be respectful, but that goes both ways. Your opinion isn't invalid if you're interested in features that Pentax hasn't implemented yet.

06-17-2019, 05:22 AM - 1 Like   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by savoche Quote
What a novel idea - keep posts relevant to the subforum they're posted in! I wonder why nobody's thought of that

Yep, truly radical, but I'll vote for it anyway

Sorry for intruding, I'll continue on my quest to find discussions not yet devolved into Yet Another Mirrorless Thread.
When you find one please let me know!
06-17-2019, 05:31 AM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Exactly, so if people who don't want to discuss Pentax stay out of the Pentax threads, everything is cool.

We can go to the mirrorless threads when we want to talk mirrorless.
Of course the difficulty comes with discussions about a new Sony sensor and how that might be used in a new Pentax camera. Will it use functions that are traditionally found in mirrorless cameras, like PDAF? Will it incorporate mirrorless features in a hybrid viewfinder, that Pentax has patented? Can we discuss features that people have experience with in other cameras that might be applicable to the new Pentax body, even if those features might be currently implemented in, say, a Sony or Fuji mirrorless?

It could be unmanageable to control the expression of opinions to the satisfaction of all.
06-17-2019, 05:40 AM - 4 Likes   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
there are good reasons for choosing MILC, things Pentax users miss by not having MILC available
If you've done your home work, investigated the options, and made the decision that suits your needs, you don't need to revisit that decision over and over again. The first and really obnoxious thing about MILC proponents is exactly the trap one sees in this logic. It assumes they re telling me something I don't know. And when you say you did your investigation and decided to stay DSLR, they generally go negative on you. I know all I wish to know about MILC. I did my homework. My guess is I probably know a lot more about MILC than many of those who promote it on the site.

The constant problem of MILC in non-milc threads is, I've already made that decision. If Pentax introduces MILC, it doesn't matter, I'm not buying anybody's MILC. I already own a Pentax Mirrorless with an EVF.

Most of the MILC promoters do not in any way try and respect my decision. Most of them try and make out (like Winder did recently ) that we are Luddites. That level of aggressive judgement should be banned.

This is not about MILC vs DSLRs, this is about the basic rules of conversation. You shouldn't get to come here with the attitude that you're gods gift to the information age, because you made different purchasing decision than someone else. And you certainly shouldn't be allowed to get in everyone's face about it.

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
Your opinion isn't invalid if you're interested in features that Pentax hasn't implemented yet.
Valid is a strange word, I think if you project Pentax into some future tech, there is no need to do so with the attitude that people with just as "valid" opinions as your own, haven't put a lot of time into coming to a different opinion and it''s just as valid as their own. As long as we have MILC people calling DSLR users old, dinosaurs, Luddites etc. they simply are not worthy of respect. You get what you give, and the first thing that has to be given is the respect, that whoever you're talking to is as knowledgeable and smart as you are. If you can't grant that basic modicum of respect, you don't even belong on a social site.


MILC owners have become like Vegans. "I bought this shiny new toy, now I'm going to tell you about it, whether or not you care."

"Let me tell you about this camera you thoroughly investigated and rejected as an option 2 years ago."

" I don't care if it's relevant to you, I just want to have someone to talk to."

It's just nerdish behaviour.


Last edited by normhead; 06-17-2019 at 07:25 AM.
06-17-2019, 06:02 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZombieArmy Quote
You'd have to offer some insane specs for a price like that to be acceptable on an APSC camera.
And there-in lies the problem. A flagship APS-C camera with a high-FPS APS-C sensor is likely to cost almost as much as the K-1. Any cost savings from the smaller sensor will be spent on the high-spec processing components for high frame rates, deep buffer, decent video, and fast dual-SD card interfaces that people seem to want.
06-17-2019, 06:02 AM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Most of the MILC promoters do not in any way try and respect my decision. Most of them try and make out (like Winder did recently ) that we are Luddites.
The problem is MILC cameras are available in shops, I tried some, I wasn't wowed by the so advertised pluses of mirrorless, I came back to what I already own and happy with. I thought that mirrorless still need a lot of improvement (ergo, lens mount compatibility, good DR, smooth EVF etc) to be acceptably comfortable for me. But what I don't understand is when people are trying to convince me that I should get a mirrorless camera based on advantages that I didn't find when I tried mirrorless cameras. I hope that if Ricoh make a mirrorless camera I won't have to change all my lenses and I won't have pain in the eye after I look in the EVF, and won't have to carry a 4 pack batteries in my bag, that's all. Simply put, I haven't seen that the claimed advantages are meaningful advantages in practice, but I have nothing against mirrorless , except I don't like to be pushed to buy something that I haven't chosen myself.
06-17-2019, 06:14 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
And there-in lies the problem. A flagship APS-C camera with a high-FPS APS-C sensor is likely to cost almost as much as the K-1. Any cost savings from the smaller sensor will be spent on the high-spec processing components for high frame rates, deep buffer, decent video, and fast dual-SD card interfaces that people seem to want.
Which is why many of us want incremental change. A larger buffer, I'm sure the write speed of modern processors are faster than what was available as "standard equipment" 6 years ago. Just by going with the flow, Pentax should be able to put out a better product at a similar price. The K-3 can be improved without going all D500 ballistic just by implementing the off the shelf tech of today.


Last edited by normhead; 06-17-2019 at 06:36 AM.
06-17-2019, 06:22 AM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Accumulated inflation over the last ten year for the EU zone was about 15%.
A camera priced 1299 Euros in 2009 should be priced 1495 Euros in 2019.

Accumulated inflation over the last ten year for the US zone was about 20%.
A camera priced $1299 in the USA in 2009 should be priced $1550 in 2019.

The original K1 is currently cheaper (1245 Euros) than a new apsc camera of ten years ago.
Well the KP is now 849 euro in the best priced shop overhere
Pentax KP Body Zwart
It was 799 if I'm correct at black friday, so that is a good price.
Looking at the age of the KP it is comparable with what the K-5 did after time. At some point you could get the K-5 for 669 euro (with a cash back from Pentax).

So prizes do match over time with inflation to some extent. Even if the KP is not at the same level as the K-5 was then, it is the top tier product for Pentax now.

Making a new top of the line aps-c dslr that is in line with the K-3.....for 1799 euro.....well that is expensive. Biggest issue is the shrinking market that makes less and less room for sales in unit numbers.
06-17-2019, 07:04 AM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
And there-in lies the problem. A flagship APS-C camera with a high-FPS APS-C sensor is likely to cost almost as much as the K-1. Any cost savings from the smaller sensor will be spent on the high-spec processing components for high frame rates, deep buffer, decent video, and fast dual-SD card interfaces that people seem to want.
They need to make it either awesome(er) or $1000. It can't be a KP packaged in a K-3 body with a few incremental upgrades for $1700.



---------- Post added 06-17-19 at 10:06 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If you've done your home work, investigated the options, and made the decision that suits your needs, you don't need to revisit that decision over and over again. The first and really obnoxious thing about MILC proponents is exactly the trap one sees in this logic. It assumes they re telling me something I don't know. And when you say you did your investigation and decided to stay DSLR, they generally go negative on you. I know all I wish to know about MILC. I did my homework. My guess is I probably know a lot more about MILC than many of those who promote it on the site.

The constant problem of MILC in non-milc threads is, I've already made that decision. If Pentax introduces MILC, it doesn't matter, I'm not buying anybody's MILC. I already own a Pentax Mirrorless with an EVF.

Most of the MILC promoters do not in any way try and respect my decision. Most of them try and make out (like Winder did recently ) that we are Luddites. That level of aggressive judgement should be banned.

This is not about MILC vs DSLRs, this is about the basic rules of conversation. You shouldn't get to come here with the attitude that you're gods gift to the information age, because you made different purchasing decision than someone else. And you certainly shouldn't be allowed to get in everyone's face about it.



Valid is a strange word, I think if you project Pentax into some future tech, there is no need to do so with the attitude that people with just as "valid" opinions as your own, haven't put a lot of time into coming to a different opinion and it''s just as valid as their own. As long as we have MILC people calling DSLR users old, dinosaurs, Luddites etc. they simply are not worthy of respect. You get what you give, and the first thing that has to be given is the respect, that whoever you're talking to is as knowledgeable and smart as you are. If you can't grant that basic modicum of respect, your don't even belong on a social site.


MILC owners have become like Vegans. "I bought this shiny new toy, now I'm going to tell you about it, whether or not you care."

"Let me tell you about this camera you thoroughly investigated and rejected as an option 2 years ago.""
" I don't care if it's relevant to you, I just want to have someone to talk to."

It's just nerdish behaviour.
Maybe we need a sub-sub forum just to commiserate about the endless talk about mirrorless.
06-17-2019, 07:21 AM - 1 Like   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
They need to make it either awesome(er) or $1000. It can't be a KP packaged in a K-3 body with a few incremental upgrades for $1700.
I want a K-P with a few incremental upgrades in a K-3 body for $1200 USD. I really like my K-3. But it's not going to last forever the way I shoot.
06-17-2019, 07:31 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If you've done your home work, investigated the options, and made the decision that suits your needs, you don't need to revisit that decision over and over again. The first and really obnoxious thing about MILC proponents is exactly the trap one sees in this logic. It assumes they re telling me something I don't know. And when you say you did your investigation and decided to stay DSLR, they generally go negative on you. I know all I wish to know about MILC. I did my homework. My guess is I probably know a lot more about MILC than many of those who promote it on the site.

The constant problem of MILC in non-milc threads is, I've already made that decision. If Pentax introduces MILC, it doesn't matter, I'm not buying anybody's MILC. I already own a Pentax Mirrorless with an EVF.

Most of the MILC promoters do not in any way try and respect my decision. Most of them try and make out (like Winder did recently ) that we are Luddites. That level of aggressive judgement should be banned.

This is not about MILC vs DSLRs, this is about the basic rules of conversation. You shouldn't get to come here with the attitude that you're gods gift to the information age, because you made different purchasing decision than someone else. And you certainly shouldn't be allowed to get in everyone's face about it.



Valid is a strange word, I think if you project Pentax into some future tech, there is no need to do so with the attitude that people with just as "valid" opinions as your own, haven't put a lot of time into coming to a different opinion and it''s just as valid as their own. As long as we have MILC people calling DSLR users old, dinosaurs, Luddites etc. they simply are not worthy of respect. You get what you give, and the first thing that has to be given is the respect, that whoever you're talking to is as knowledgeable and smart as you are. If you can't grant that basic modicum of respect, your don't even belong on a social site.


MILC owners have become like Vegans. "I bought this shiny new toy, now I'm going to tell you about it, whether or not you care."

"Let me tell you about this camera you thoroughly investigated and rejected as an option 2 years ago.""
" I don't care if it's relevant to you, I just want to have someone to talk to."

It's just nerdish behaviour.
Your first quote of me about "good reasons for...", that's not me. It was reh321.
06-17-2019, 07:48 AM - 1 Like   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
They need to make it either awesome(er) or $1000. It can't be a KP packaged in a K-3 body with a few incremental upgrades for $1700.



---------- Post added 06-17-19 at 10:06 AM ----------

Maybe we need a sub-sub forum just to commiserate about the endless talk about mirrorless.
Indeed! The question is what are the "incremental upgrades" and how much do they cost to develop and build into the camera?

A "flagship" APS-C camera might not be that much cheaper than a "flagship" FF camera. Sure, it has a smaller sensor but the spec on that sensor might need to be higher-end for frame-rate and video features and the image processor might need to be much more expensive to handle the frame rate and video.
06-17-2019, 08:50 AM - 1 Like   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Indeed! The question is what are the "incremental upgrades" and how much do they cost to develop and build into the camera?

A "flagship" APS-C camera might not be that much cheaper than a "flagship" FF camera. Sure, it has a smaller sensor but the spec on that sensor might need to be higher-end for frame-rate and video features and the image processor might need to be much more expensive to handle the frame rate and video.
It's all relative, are you talking K-1 for FF. D850 body only $4000 CAD
K-1 mkII $2500 body only.

K-P $1200 body only.

K-3 replacement at $1500-$1700 or roughly $1400 USD should be doable.

Development for new components is irrelevant, every camera has development costs for new components.
06-17-2019, 09:47 AM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Development for new components is irrelevant, every camera has development costs for new components.
If the specs are true, Fuji (and their customers) likely paid the development of the sensor to Sony, and us Pentaxian get the same stuff a year or two later. We should say thank you to former Pentaxians who switched to Fuji for having paid sensor R&D for us (they are really cool folks).

---------- Post added 17-06-19 at 18:52 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
K-3 replacement at $1500-$1700 or roughly $1400 USD should be doable.
Don't forget that for sport cameras(*) the price is a function of the frame rate: roughly 100 USD per FPS => 8 FPS = 800 USD, now if the camera boast 16 FPS it's going to cost around $1600 I'm afraid.


(*) for landscape cameras, Fuji price = 100 USD / Mpixels. BTW Pentax K1 Mega pixel is a lot cheaper.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 06-17-2019 at 09:55 AM.
06-17-2019, 06:24 PM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It's just nerdish behaviour.
That's insulting to us nerds
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