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09-05-2019, 11:10 AM - 1 Like   #1096
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
To say that APSC people all moved on to the K-1 and don't still want an APSC seems like folly... I know I for one want a high density APSC for birding, etc. to carry with my K-1. The weight of adding an APSC body in my bag is lighter than carrying a 600mm F4... so I could carry my K-1 with my FA31/FA77 and the new K3.xxx with HDFA150-450 and still have a lighter total kit for less total cash outlay. If I was just doing portraits, landscapes or street, you might have something to your claim, but everyone's needs are different.
I know photographers like you exist. The main problem for Ricoh-Imaging is that there are probably (or they afraid for that) not enough of people like you to make a new top tier model, sell enough of them over a course of years, and make a profit on it. Otherwise that model would have been on the market for like two years already.

09-05-2019, 12:16 PM - 4 Likes   #1097
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I know photographers like you exist. The main problem for Ricoh-Imaging is that there are probably (or they afraid for that) not enough of people like you to make a new top tier model, sell enough of them over a course of years, and make a profit on it. Otherwise that model would have been on the market for like two years already.
These forums would suggest there's a lot of us flagship APS-C body shooters who chose to stay with the format for a variety of reasons, Ron. I have other-brand full frame gear, but I choose to shoot with APS-C equipment most often due to the more compact and light-weight bodies and lenses. I don't think I'm rare in settling with APS-C as a good compromise between image quality and practicality.

We, and you, can speculate all we like as to the reasons for the high-end APS-C body taking so long... It may well have something to do with Ricoh wanting to wring maximum sales out of the KP before the new model (designed, if my memory serves me correctly - and we're to believe the interviews - to appeal to K-3 / K-3II owners) is released. Or it may have something to do with an overall decline in camera sales. But we're all just guessing...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 09-05-2019 at 12:24 PM.
09-05-2019, 12:43 PM - 2 Likes   #1098
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Or there might be so much new tech in that new camera that they have to test and work with it much more than they thought, and that is why it take so long. Because they don't throw halfbaked product out just because it need to be there yesterday and then slowly patch it together with FW updates
09-05-2019, 02:25 PM   #1099
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I know photographers like you exist. The main problem for Ricoh-Imaging is that there are probably (or they afraid for that) not enough of people like you to make a new top tier model, sell enough of them over a course of years, and make a profit on it. Otherwise that model would have been on the market for like two years already.
Canon expects the 90D to sell very well, and that is not even counting that they released a mirrorless twin (M6II) simultaneously.

You cannot sell a camera you don't make, you have to sell the camera you did make, and for Pentax that has been the KP where APS-C is concerned. If Pentax did not sell enough KP's to legitimize a new APS-C camera follow-up, then that is not because there is no demand for a quality crop camera, but it is because Pentax with the KP made the wrong camera to appeal to a majority of the Pentax user base. I believe that the KP launch was not even taken seriously, heck was hardly noticed at all, because 90% of the Pentax user base was expecting a "real" K3 successor, saw the KP as an insignificant side-step or experiment, and lived in denial for a long time about the fact that the KP wás the K3 successor, as top APS-C camera.

Still, the KP stock will have to be near depleted if a KP successor is to ever arrive... without enough demand, a new model may be pushed back further and further...


Last edited by Chris Mak; 09-05-2019 at 02:32 PM.
09-05-2019, 04:00 PM - 7 Likes   #1100
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Chris Mac - The KP is an additional mid-range model and the K-3 successor is going to be poisoned higher. You like to portray this as a mistake, but the KP seems to have been the most popular Pentax DSLR the whole time since it’s release in Japan. The K-3 II on the other hand was always considered a bit of a dud while it was on sale. It’s only since it was discontinued that people have got misty-eyed about it. The fact is that to make a competitive top class APS-C camera in 2019 they need to do a lot better than the K-3 II and that is going to need to be a more expensive model. That’s why the lines had to be split.

Ron - What is coming next year is not a KP-derived camera. It’s a camera that “keeps concept” of the K-5/K-3 cameras, but is all new inside and positioned as a top class APS-C camera. It has a new sensor and engine at least. It is around the same size as the K-3, but not exactly. It does not have a permanently attached dual-grip design. This was said by the person leading the project (Shigeru Wakashiro) at CP+.

Clackers - The comments about timing have been deliberately vague. What Wakashiro-San said at CP+ was “not for a while” and when suggested that it might be as late as Xmas 2020, he said “it won’t be that long”. Reminder: Don’t over analyze the specific words I use to paraphrase Japanese from memory. Kimio Tanaka definitely has enough connection to Ricoh to know what’s coming. He appears at their events, he writes a regular column in their magazine and he has had access to unreleased products in the past. He also likes to prod Pentax about always being delayed. His latest comment was that it will be out in the second half of next year, but it’s not clear if he means in stores or announced. It’s possible it will be shown during spring with delivery some months later.

reh321 - I don’t think anyone said specifically the K-3 successor would the next model to be released (i.e. that no other camera will be released in the interim). The Ricoh representatives only talk about future cameras when asked about them, and they were only really asked about the K-3 successor. It’s quite possible that a K-70 level camera, a 645 camera or even a KP2 could come out before that. I can only imagine the histrionics if the latter happens.

Anyway, that is the information I know that came from named people with a clear association with Ricoh. I don’t pay much attention to anonymous posters myself.

I could go further and speculate about a lot more features the camera will have, but no better than you. I think it’s reasonable to look at other Ricoh models K-1 and GR III) and infer that some features will come over. I also think that Ricoh will want to keep up with competitors and implement some other capabilities that competitors have. It makes sense to me.
09-05-2019, 04:09 PM - 1 Like   #1101
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
These forums would suggest there's a lot of us flagship APS-C body shooters who chose to stay with the format for a variety of reasons, Ron. I have other-brand full frame gear, but I choose to shoot with APS-C equipment most often due to the more compact and light-weight bodies and lenses. I don't think I'm rare in settling with APS-C as a good compromise between image quality and practicality.
And price. APS-C is still far more affordable than FF. Especially with Pentax. Both lenses and bodies. I paid $800 for a new K-3ii. Used K-1iis on KEH are $1450. There are no affordable FF telephoto lenses for Pentax, and in other categories you have to go back to film-era lenses to find FF that's reasonably priced.

Unless I want to shoot in 15MP crop mode the only FF equivalent to my K-3ii and 55-300PLM is $3000 used (K-1 plus 150-450).
09-05-2019, 09:28 PM - 2 Likes   #1102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
I believe that the KP launch was not even taken seriously, heck was hardly noticed at all, because 90% of the Pentax user base was expecting a "real" K3 successor, saw the KP as an insignificant side-step or experiment, and lived in denial for a long time about the fact that the KP wás the K3 successor, as top APS-C camera.
People here definitely didn't take the KP seriously. The 'accelerator' was very poorly understood even after it was used in the K-70 and then the KP. I was shocked at the number of those who called the K-1ii a "facelift" of the K-1 because they were so unfamiliar with the technology provided by the 'accelerator'.

09-05-2019, 10:18 PM   #1103
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
People here definitely didn't take the KP seriously. The 'accelerator' was very poorly understood even after it was used in the K-70 and then the KP. I was shocked at the number of those who called the K-1ii a "facelift" of the K-1 because they were so unfamiliar with the technology provided by the 'accelerator'.
I’m not shocked at all. At the same time one is able to get a really nice upgrade. But other companyes are giving to you so ’much more’(sony) with a -new model-. This is the main reason why lot of people get it wrong, they compare wrong things against each other, while still looking pentax as a brand that does same as others, but cheaper. Now when they are not offering what a lot of tech guys are waiting for, what they would maybe buy when it is discontinued, they are upset because their wishes are not met.

This is what you are surprised of?
09-05-2019, 11:42 PM - 1 Like   #1104
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
And price. APS-C is still far more affordable than FF.
And that's the problem, Thor.

Not for us shooters, but for the companies. The profits aren't large enough to cover the drop in volume of sales - which the CEO of Canon expects will halve again in the next two years.

They're really squeezing the lemon, and shutting out people on a tight budget.

Sony have no interest in the entry level A3000 or mid-level A5000 cameras, it's only the high end 6000s or full frame.

Panasonic have skipped APS-C searching for a premium product and gone straight to FF.

Nikon and Canon ignored APS-C with their vision for the future, the R and Z series also went straight to full frame.

Fuji have even skipped FF and gone for medium format.

If a K-3 user upgrades to a K-3 III there's a real danger they will just reuse their existing lens. Encouraging/forcing customers to go to FF or even a new mirrorless mount means there's potential for additional lenses to be sold.

And in fact, we've seen with the DFA lenses that they sell so few copies with a limited pool of FF customers that it's hard to get their money back - they've tried to sell the DFA*50 to Canon and Nikon owners hoping 'quality wins'. But I've not seen evidence of the Tokina Opera being popular despite its outstanding performance.

It's a lot to think about for Pentax, which has to think, what does a niche player do, that doesn't involve going head to head with the giants?

There are opportunities, perhaps … the big guys are seemingly downplaying APS-C, which on the other hand might be selling five or six times the number of units versus FF right now. And they are betting the ranch on mirrorless, which even at this point is still being consistently outsold by DSLRs.

If you're the Ricoh product manager, you'd be commissioning all kinds of studies for the different scenarios. And you've got to do it without losing money year to year - the orders from above to all divisions including cameras, is to attempt to survive, to break even, to not chase market share in dire economic times.

Last edited by clackers; 09-05-2019 at 11:52 PM.
09-05-2019, 11:50 PM   #1105
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Chris Mac - The KP is an additional mid-range model and the K-3 successor is going to be poisoned higher. You like to portray this as a mistake, but the KP seems to have been the most popular Pentax DSLR the whole time since it’s release in Japan. The K-3 II on the other hand was always considered a bit of a dud while it was on sale. It’s only since it was discontinued that people have got misty-eyed about it. The fact is that to make a competitive top class APS-C camera in 2019 they need to do a lot better than the K-3 II and that is going to need to be a more expensive model. That’s why the lines had to be split.

Ron - What is coming next year is not a KP-derived camera. It’s a camera that “keeps concept” of the K-5/K-3 cameras, but is all new inside and positioned as a top class APS-C camera. It has a new sensor and engine at least. It is around the same size as the K-3, but not exactly. It does not have a permanently attached dual-grip design. This was said by the person leading the project (Shigeru Wakashiro) at CP+.
By no means do I "like to portray" anything regarding the APS-C camera lines from Pentax, but like to take the facts and go from there. The fact being that Pentax terminated the K3 line, and introduced the KP. It may very well be a popular model in some areas, but regarding Europe and USA, it left a lot of K3 users looking to upgrade behind.
If a new line of APS-C cameras is to be introduced, then all the better, but the termination of the K3 line and the introduction of the KP line was unfortunate in some ways.

And let's not forget that if Pentax really wants to aim higher with a top tier APS-C camera, they will have to do something in the area of the lenses if it wants to be successful.

Last edited by Chris Mak; 09-05-2019 at 11:55 PM.
09-06-2019, 12:34 AM   #1106
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
If a K-3 user upgrades to a K-3 III there's a real danger they will just reuse their existing lens. Encouraging/forcing customers to go to FF or even a new mirrorless mount means there's potential for additional lenses to be sold.
And yet there's been recent new DA lenses, which suggests that Pentax isn't giving up on APS-C. On the other hand, if there's not going to be a replacement for the K3, it would be nice to know.
09-06-2019, 12:47 AM - 1 Like   #1107
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobG Quote
And yet there's been recent new DA lenses, which suggests that Pentax isn't giving up on APS-C. On the other hand, if there's not going to be a replacement for the K3, it would be nice to know.
I think you'll find there's only been the DA*11-18 this year, Rob.

The re-release of the FA35 and the DA10-17 fisheye with a hood redesigned to be better compatible with the K-1 can be seen can be seen as pitching to full frame owners.

I think you should read the various interviews with the Pentax executives, a replacement for the K-3 is happening, it's in black and white. Now, it may be a step up in pricing as well as performance, and many forum members may not be able to afford it as they did their previous camera. Pentaxians have a proud history of making do with what they have, too, so that's not good for Ricoh.

And whether a low end one, a K-70 replacement, is being worked on, has not been mentioned. We can see this with the APS-C GR III, too. They did not come out with an affordable product, like the X100F is for Fuji, they stayed premium as the GR II was. BTW, I think the K-3 replacement may have features trialled on the GR III, such as an embedded Linux operating system and a touchscreen.

Other companies are following Pentax into being niche premium brands, and I don't think that's easy, turning a dog into a cat. Pentax already started as a low volume operation, these others have thousands of employees and are paying off bank loans on enormous factories built during the 2007-2012 boom.

Last edited by clackers; 09-06-2019 at 12:54 AM.
09-06-2019, 02:53 AM   #1108
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Pentaxians have a proud history of making do with what they have, too, so that's not good for Ricoh.
I don't think Pentaxians don't spend money and don't upgrade their gear. I find them more conservative and realistic about what to expect from new gear and they don't buy too much the whole "must have new super gear hype" that accompanies Sony gear releases for example. I feel though that Pentax strategy of releasing gear with a much longer life cycle (as they have admitted in their interviews) has fed this Pentaxian culture.

So for me what is important for the new APS-C is to be so good camera and upgraded in such ways that will be very attractive to Pentaxians who have hesitated so far to upgrade their gear to take the step forward. I'm one of them, still happy with my K-5IIs but very interested in a new advanced APS-C to match my DFA 150-450 and DFA* 70-200 potential! So for me things are quite simple and the ball is on Ricoh/Pentax's field. Bring up something great and get my money! The delay for which many members grouch about - and is quite understandable - might on the other hand mean that Pentax prepares something big for her size and that makes me happy!

PS: We have read it and I also have the same information that they are preparing something "really good"! That is encouraging and tempting though I couldn't think of any company that would leak they are working on something indifferent to update their APS-C flagship...

Last edited by redpit; 09-06-2019 at 03:07 AM.
09-06-2019, 04:10 AM   #1109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
Ummm... I am not so sure. APSC is still the weapon of choice for action and long tele work, which I think is what is delaying the release. They need to release a camera that is at least ***usable for birding, sports, long tele work, etc which is where the K-1 is a bit weak in FPS, buffer, and crop pixel density (no better than K-5IIs giving AA-less 15.xx mp crop).

To say that APSC people all moved on to the K-1 and don't still want an APSC seems like folly... I know I for one want a high density APSC for birding, etc. to carry with my K-1. The weight of adding an APSC body in my bag is lighter than carrying a 600mm F4... so I could carry my K-1 with my FA31/FA77 and the new K3.xxx with HDFA150-450 and still have a lighter total kit for less total cash outlay. If I was just doing portraits, landscapes or street, you might have something to your claim, but everyone's needs are different.

Unless of course they released a new Full Frame replacement for K-1 with a 50+mp low noise sensor... which would give a similar pixel density to APSC... heh. but chances are, the 2 technologies will always remain unparallel, so the current gen APSC will probably always maintain the advantage for density. I dunno... maybe I am talking out my booty, but it seems historically true, so it seems logical moving forward to maintain a flagship APSC line for the many reasons it makes sense.
Eric

***EDIT: Usable, not meaning that past K-3 models were not usable, just saying usable in the vane of staying current with competitors as they are usable, IE: staying at least in the realm of FPS, CAF & buffer, not necessarily having to be on top in specifications on paper, because you pay a lot for that last 2% of performance, where as reaching 98% is still pretty darn good and lost in the noise of individual ability to use that last 2%.
I tend to agree. APS-C still can play a role, especially in two fields. One could be the high speed, feature rich sports and wildlife photography. Here speed and reach are something that can be delivered also/especially in this sensor format. As size, weight and prize are not such a point for that some synergies with DFA lenses can be achieved, long tele/-zooms are large/heavy/expensive anyways.
The other area I see, and where my interests are focused on, is APS-C as a robust compact travel system. Here dedicated lenses, PLM but also something like the 20-40 limited with environmental protection are here, and could be extended, maybe even with some basic protection for the limiteds (but they make a good travel kit also without that). The 11-18* opens such a system to high quality allround use, thus a body based on the KP will still have a right on its own. I would have wished for astrotracer in it. Here new GNSS receivers might be something for an update. This could still be an attractive alternative to mirrorless systems and I would like to see it further in the development of the Pentax lineup.
09-06-2019, 04:23 AM   #1110
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
And that's the problem, Thor.

Not for us shooters, but for the companies. The profits aren't large enough to cover the drop in volume of sales - which the CEO of Canon expects will halve again in the next two years.

They're really squeezing the lemon, and shutting out people on a tight budget.

Sony have no interest in the entry level A3000 or mid-level A5000 cameras, it's only the high end 6000s or full frame.

Panasonic have skipped APS-C searching for a premium product and gone straight to FF.

Nikon and Canon ignored APS-C with their vision for the future, the R and Z series also went straight to full frame.

Fuji have even skipped FF and gone for medium format.

If a K-3 user upgrades to a K-3 III there's a real danger they will just reuse their existing lens. Encouraging/forcing customers to go to FF or even a new mirrorless mount means there's potential for additional lenses to be sold.

And in fact, we've seen with the DFA lenses that they sell so few copies with a limited pool of FF customers that it's hard to get their money back - they've tried to sell the DFA*50 to Canon and Nikon owners hoping 'quality wins'. But I've not seen evidence of the Tokina Opera being popular despite its outstanding performance.

It's a lot to think about for Pentax, which has to think, what does a niche player do, that doesn't involve going head to head with the giants?

There are opportunities, perhaps … the big guys are seemingly downplaying APS-C, which on the other hand might be selling five or six times the number of units versus FF right now. And they are betting the ranch on mirrorless, which even at this point is still being consistently outsold by DSLRs.

If you're the Ricoh product manager, you'd be commissioning all kinds of studies for the different scenarios. And you've got to do it without losing money year to year - the orders from above to all divisions including cameras, is to attempt to survive, to break even, to not chase market share in dire economic times.
Hopefully their analysis is comprehensive enough to take into full account the feedback loop of going ever higher upmarket: Your business choices are intentionally shrinking the number of people willing or able to buy your product. Perhaps dramatically. Every time a manufacturer drops a $700 APS-C camera line with consumer lenses and suggests a good replacement is a $2000 FF model with $1500 lenses, many thousands of people decide that new iPhone or Pixel is a much better use of their money and photographic time. Or that photographs just aren't that important.

It's a little like baseball tickets. 30 years ago major league baseball teams often had huge stadiums that were in many cases re-used 75,000 seat football stadiums. They were often at 20% of capacity, but would have the occasional sellout. The recent trend is to build 35,000 seat stadiums and rely on higher ticket prices to make up for lower capacity. But how many families now decide they're not going to the baseball game because it costs $250 for a family of four, when a generation ago it might have cost the current equivalent of $100 or less?

I know they have to try to make a profit and stay in business. But that's pretty hard when your customer base is 46 rich people.
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