About the K20D Price Drop...

**Sailor** · 10-11-2008, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

textbook answer, however may i introduce you to the word "speculation", and a quick glance at the current world economy, particulary in the US, will tell you how effective the market is at setting the fair price....

Sorry, but the market does set prices - "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.

Anyway, the price decrease of the K20D seems to mimic what we've seen over the last few years with SLR's from all of the major companies - aggressive prices at introduction to get the maximum return from anxious early adopters followed by a slow decline over time as demand decreases. I don't think there are any "speculative" hedge funds or index funds based on retail camera prices; if there are, I'll write Cox over at the SEC and demand that he immediately suspend shorting these funds.

Jer

Gooshin · 10-11-2008, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Sailor

Sorry, but the market does set prices - "fair" is in the eye of the beholder.

Anyway, the price decrease of the K20D seems to mimic what we've seen over the last few years with SLR's from all of the major companies - aggressive prices at introduction to get the maximum return from anxious early adopters followed by a slow decline over time as demand decreases. I don't think there are any "speculative" hedge funds or index funds based on retail camera prices; if there are, I'll write Cox over at the SEC and demand that he immediately suspend shorting these funds.

Jer

i'm not talking about hedge funds

i'm simply challanging your opinion that manufactures have no impact on price,

in theory, they dont (textbook), but in reality how a company prices its products is.. well, up to the company, and you cant blindly assume that the market is going to dictate what price that company will decide to slap on to their prodcuts.

regken · 10-11-2008, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

i'm not talking about hedge funds

i'm simply challanging your opinion that manufactures have no impact on price,

in theory, they dont (textbook), but in reality how a company prices its products is.. well, up to the company, and you cant blindly assume that the market is going to dictate what price that company will decide to slap on to their prodcuts.

Gotta side with Jer on this one. A company decides what they are going to sell a product for but if the market doesn't like the price it doesn't sell. To stay in business the company has to bend to the market.

When looking at the whole market I'm amazed they have been able to keep the price as high as they have.

Ken

Gooshin · 10-11-2008, 11:43 PM

Originally posted by regken

Gotta side with Jer on this one. A company decides what they are going to sell a product for but if the market doesn't like the price it doesn't sell. To stay in business the company has to bend to the market.

When looking at the whole market I'm amazed they have been able to keep the price as high as they have.

Ken

then why are 1D's mk3's selling for what they are?

why are diamonds worth what they are worth?

a company can floor its price to maintain a status quo at the expense of attracting new customers, even if logicaly speaking they would benefit from a lower price.

today, actually, i went shopping for some fall coats. I purchased a single armani biker-esque jacket for 250 dollars, wool/cotton with some nylon, stylish and all that jazz. I also purchased 3 other jackets from Bluenotes for 50 bucks each, also made from cotton/wool/nylon combo's. While i'll admit that the armani jacket has a bit more.. "design" to it, as far as clothing goes the 50 dollar bluenotes pieces are just as well made.

yet why the price difference? because the armani name demands it.

Pentax (or nikon, canon, whatever) can satisfy "the market", but if the price passes a certain point, a particular level of prestige may be lost.

also, i would like to remind you, of which "market" are we talking about.

not to insult, but americans are getting some of the cheapest goods out there. Ask any European here how much they pay for their camera equipment, and they do pay, and the only time they wil frown is when you flaunt the US price at them.

alternatively, take a look at tobaco prices. In Russia a pack of malboro's or parliments goes for 40-50 rubbles, thats roughly 2 US dollars.

Canada... 9 bucks for a pack of smokes.. NINE ****ING DOLLARS. The government is using their muscle to influence public purchasing patterns. Make somethign too expensive and only the die hard fans (for lack of a better phrase) will purchase it.

linear supply and demand graphs and general market theory are nice... in a perfect market economy world, but its not that black and white, just something for everyone to consider.

**Sailor** · 10-12-2008, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

i'm not talking about hedge funds

i'm simply challanging your opinion that manufactures have no impact on price,

in theory, they dont (textbook), but in reality how a company prices its products is.. well, up to the company, and you cant blindly assume that the market is going to dictate what price that company will decide to slap on to their prodcuts.

My friend, I totally agree that a company can control the price of its products - by designing, manufacturing and promoting stuff people want to buy - thus generating sustained demand. A number of companies, located all over the world, are quite good at this.

I also agree that a company can "slap" any price it wants on a product, but - sadly - the market simply doesn't care. If people aren't willing (or able) to fork over the cash, demand is not there. Then the price has to drop, as a company works to maintain the sweet spot between margin and volume for a reasonable return.

Also note that my hedge fund comments were intended as a sarcastic joke. I love irony and sarcasm, but they always get me in trouble.

Jer

bobrapp · 10-12-2008, 09:09 PM

It is official:

Pentax Imaging - Pentax Press Release

The same thing happened with other models. I feel that the price reduction has more to do with getting the R&D cost paid for with initial sales and now they are just producing cameras.

Bob

F-Stop · 10-12-2008, 09:44 PM

The main reason most everything, camera equipment in this case, is cheaper in the US is that it is the worlds largest consumer economy 'consuming' the majority of worlds products produced. With that type of buying power every other dollar is ranked against the greenback so when the US economy slumps the rest go with it. I hate how that is the case but we have to live with it.

As for your $9 cigarettes, a large portion of that goes back as taxes and free health care. I worked in the US for 2 months last summer and I will tell you I'll gladly pay $22.50 for a dozen beer than worry about how I'd have to pay to fix a broken arm, cancer treatments or any aliment yet simply walk out of the hospital at the end of the day and not pay a cent. Don't get me wrong I loved it in North Carolina and I wanted to live there; coming back to NL was painful mostly cause of the weather but talking to 400 people I worked with or met in public everyone said they wish they could live in Canada because health care is free.

As for European pricing it seems out to lunch but if you compare the fact a Big Mac Meal would cost around $30 in the UK and $5 in the US or $8-9 in Canada then relative to camera equipment it's on par with the cost of other goods. Still, it seems like a backward pricing scheme especially when a Pound or Euro has more value than a US dollar.

This doesn't answer why the prices drops but I guess like anything you produce it long enough suppliers may simply give you a deal on materials. That or they recouped their costs and met year end budgets so decide to simply lower prices to sell higher volumes again.

deejjjaaaa · 10-12-2008, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by F-Stop

they wish they could live in Canada because health care is free.

even dental

?

deejjjaaaa · 10-12-2008, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by Gooshin

alternatively, take a look at tobaco prices. In Russia a pack of malboro's or parliments goes for 40-50 rubbles, thats roughly 2 US dollars.

alternatively, take a look at autos... some shitty non turbo impreza goes there for more bucks than you will pay for STi here even if you will add some aftermarket tuning done by some 3rd party to that STi.

**germar** · 10-13-2008, 05:39 AM

Dragging this thread back on topic ...

I note that Amazon has marked the K20D to a list of $999 USD as of Monday morning 10/13, with a sale cost of 864.28. So while the list was cut in a big way, it seems the retailers are holding steady at the mid 800 dollar area. I'm thinking that the retailers had already priced in the drop a few weeks ago, and there will not be another change with the street price because of this. Anyone agree?

I'm not wishing bad things on the enconomy or Pentax as a company, but if sales stay slow I'm hoping we might see a rebate or a holiday discount that might bring this body down about another 100 dollars. I'd HAVE to pull the trigger at that point. Does anyone think that this body could possibly drop that low while still being the official flagship camera of the Pentax line?

thanks,

germar

soccerjoe5 · 10-13-2008, 05:46 AM

I think I saw some K20D bodies on ebay from reputable dealers for as low as $799

And I got mine for $1100 a few months ago

Oh well haha

deejjjaaaa · 10-13-2008, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by germar

Dragging this thread back on topic ...

I note that Amazon has marked the K20D to a list of $999 USD as of Monday morning 10/13, with a sale cost of 864.28. So while the list was cut in a big way, it seems the retailers are holding steady at the mid 800 dollar area. I'm thinking that the retailers had already priced in the drop a few weeks ago, and there will not be another change with the street price because of this. Anyone agree?

I'm not wishing bad things on the enconomy or Pentax as a company, but if sales stay slow I'm hoping we might see a rebate or a holiday discount that might bring this body down about another 100 dollars. I'd HAVE to pull the trigger at that point. Does anyone think that this body could possibly drop that low while still being the official flagship camera of the Pentax line?

thanks,

germar

wait until the shi... K30D will hit the shelves - I bet you will be able to buy gently used K20Ds for ~USD 500s-600s...

Tom Lusk · 10-13-2008, 07:25 AM

Maybe someone should tell Pentax U.S. that Pentax is spelled P E N T A X - not P E N A X as is showing in their headline at the linked news release?

Doesn't look too good.

Kunzite · 10-13-2008, 07:27 AM

Come on... we all know it should be PETNAX

Prairie Dog · 10-13-2008, 08:23 AM

When I purchased my K20D, the motivation was that I wanted one; the goods were worth the price charged at the time. I received the camera right away and began enjoying it. I received the Gear Up rebate, too. The rebate, in my estimation, was just extra as I am not motivated by rebates because they take too long and as often as not, are delayed or not honored, etc. I fully understood when purchasing the K20D, that the price would adjust, too, and, more than likely, probably downward.

I have a K20D and it's spectacular. Now I'm going to go enjoy taking some pictures and not worry about past or future product or pricing.

10-13-2008, 07:25 AM	#43
Tom Lusk Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Photos: Gallery Posts: 973	Hmmmm... Maybe someone should tell Pentax U.S. that Pentax is spelled P E N T A X - not P E N A X as is showing in their headline at the linked news release? Doesn't look too good.

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10-11-2008, 04:23 PM	#31
Sailor Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Coastal Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 26,205	Originally posted by Gooshin textbook answer, however may i introduce you to the word "speculation", and a quick glance at the current world economy, particulary in the US, will tell you how effective the market is at setting the fair price.... Sorry, but the market does set prices - "fair" is in the eye of the beholder. Anyway, the price decrease of the K20D seems to mimic what we've seen over the last few years with SLR's from all of the major companies - aggressive prices at introduction to get the maximum return from anxious early adopters followed by a slow decline over time as demand decreases. I don't think there are any "speculative" hedge funds or index funds based on retail camera prices; if there are, I'll write Cox over at the SEC and demand that he immediately suspend shorting these funds. Jer

10-11-2008, 04:30 PM	#32
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by Sailor Sorry, but the market does set prices - "fair" is in the eye of the beholder. Anyway, the price decrease of the K20D seems to mimic what we've seen over the last few years with SLR's from all of the major companies - aggressive prices at introduction to get the maximum return from anxious early adopters followed by a slow decline over time as demand decreases. I don't think there are any "speculative" hedge funds or index funds based on retail camera prices; if there are, I'll write Cox over at the SEC and demand that he immediately suspend shorting these funds. Jer i'm not talking about hedge funds i'm simply challanging your opinion that manufactures have no impact on price, in theory, they dont (textbook), but in reality how a company prices its products is.. well, up to the company, and you cant blindly assume that the market is going to dictate what price that company will decide to slap on to their prodcuts.

10-11-2008, 07:01 PM	#33
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by Gooshin i'm not talking about hedge funds i'm simply challanging your opinion that manufactures have no impact on price, in theory, they dont (textbook), but in reality how a company prices its products is.. well, up to the company, and you cant blindly assume that the market is going to dictate what price that company will decide to slap on to their prodcuts. Gotta side with Jer on this one. A company decides what they are going to sell a product for but if the market doesn't like the price it doesn't sell. To stay in business the company has to bend to the market. When looking at the whole market I'm amazed they have been able to keep the price as high as they have. Ken

10-11-2008, 11:43 PM	#34
Gooshin Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Toronto, the one in Canada. Posts: 5,610	Originally posted by regken Gotta side with Jer on this one. A company decides what they are going to sell a product for but if the market doesn't like the price it doesn't sell. To stay in business the company has to bend to the market. When looking at the whole market I'm amazed they have been able to keep the price as high as they have. Ken then why are 1D's mk3's selling for what they are? why are diamonds worth what they are worth? a company can floor its price to maintain a status quo at the expense of attracting new customers, even if logicaly speaking they would benefit from a lower price. today, actually, i went shopping for some fall coats. I purchased a single armani biker-esque jacket for 250 dollars, wool/cotton with some nylon, stylish and all that jazz. I also purchased 3 other jackets from Bluenotes for 50 bucks each, also made from cotton/wool/nylon combo's. While i'll admit that the armani jacket has a bit more.. "design" to it, as far as clothing goes the 50 dollar bluenotes pieces are just as well made. yet why the price difference? because the armani name demands it. Pentax (or nikon, canon, whatever) can satisfy "the market", but if the price passes a certain point, a particular level of prestige may be lost. also, i would like to remind you, of which "market" are we talking about. not to insult, but americans are getting some of the cheapest goods out there. Ask any European here how much they pay for their camera equipment, and they do pay, and the only time they wil frown is when you flaunt the US price at them. alternatively, take a look at tobaco prices. In Russia a pack of malboro's or parliments goes for 40-50 rubbles, thats roughly 2 US dollars. Canada... 9 bucks for a pack of smokes.. NINE ****ING DOLLARS. The government is using their muscle to influence public purchasing patterns. Make somethign too expensive and only the die hard fans (for lack of a better phrase) will purchase it. linear supply and demand graphs and general market theory are nice... in a perfect market economy world, but its not that black and white, just something for everyone to consider.

10-12-2008, 05:38 PM	#35
Sailor Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Coastal Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 26,205	Originally posted by Gooshin i'm not talking about hedge funds i'm simply challanging your opinion that manufactures have no impact on price, in theory, they dont (textbook), but in reality how a company prices its products is.. well, up to the company, and you cant blindly assume that the market is going to dictate what price that company will decide to slap on to their prodcuts. My friend, I totally agree that a company can control the price of its products - by designing, manufacturing and promoting stuff people want to buy - thus generating sustained demand. A number of companies, located all over the world, are quite good at this. I also agree that a company can "slap" any price it wants on a product, but - sadly - the market simply doesn't care. If people aren't willing (or able) to fork over the cash, demand is not there. Then the price has to drop, as a company works to maintain the sweet spot between margin and volume for a reasonable return. Also note that my hedge fund comments were intended as a sarcastic joke. I love irony and sarcasm, but they always get me in trouble. Jer

10-12-2008, 09:09 PM	#36
bobrapp Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Grand Junction Colorado Posts: 209	It is official: Pentax Imaging - Pentax Press Release The same thing happened with other models. I feel that the price reduction has more to do with getting the R&D cost paid for with initial sales and now they are just producing cameras. Bob

10-12-2008, 09:44 PM	#37
F-Stop Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Paradise, Newfoundland, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 303	The main reason most everything, camera equipment in this case, is cheaper in the US is that it is the worlds largest consumer economy 'consuming' the majority of worlds products produced. With that type of buying power every other dollar is ranked against the greenback so when the US economy slumps the rest go with it. I hate how that is the case but we have to live with it. As for your $9 cigarettes, a large portion of that goes back as taxes and free health care. I worked in the US for 2 months last summer and I will tell you I'll gladly pay $22.50 for a dozen beer than worry about how I'd have to pay to fix a broken arm, cancer treatments or any aliment yet simply walk out of the hospital at the end of the day and not pay a cent. Don't get me wrong I loved it in North Carolina and I wanted to live there; coming back to NL was painful mostly cause of the weather but talking to 400 people I worked with or met in public everyone said they wish they could live in Canada because health care is free. As for European pricing it seems out to lunch but if you compare the fact a Big Mac Meal would cost around $30 in the UK and $5 in the US or $8-9 in Canada then relative to camera equipment it's on par with the cost of other goods. Still, it seems like a backward pricing scheme especially when a Pound or Euro has more value than a US dollar. This doesn't answer why the prices drops but I guess like anything you produce it long enough suppliers may simply give you a deal on materials. That or they recouped their costs and met year end budgets so decide to simply lower prices to sell higher volumes again.

10-12-2008, 10:19 PM	#38
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by F-Stop they wish they could live in Canada because health care is free. even dental ?

10-12-2008, 10:25 PM	#39
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Gooshin alternatively, take a look at tobaco prices. In Russia a pack of malboro's or parliments goes for 40-50 rubbles, thats roughly 2 US dollars. alternatively, take a look at autos... some shitty non turbo impreza goes there for more bucks than you will pay for STi here even if you will add some aftermarket tuning done by some 3rd party to that STi.

10-13-2008, 05:39 AM	#40
germar Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: North Palm Beach, Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 728	Dragging this thread back on topic ... I note that Amazon has marked the K20D to a list of $999 USD as of Monday morning 10/13, with a sale cost of 864.28. So while the list was cut in a big way, it seems the retailers are holding steady at the mid 800 dollar area. I'm thinking that the retailers had already priced in the drop a few weeks ago, and there will not be another change with the street price because of this. Anyone agree? I'm not wishing bad things on the enconomy or Pentax as a company, but if sales stay slow I'm hoping we might see a rebate or a holiday discount that might bring this body down about another 100 dollars. I'd HAVE to pull the trigger at that point. Does anyone think that this body could possibly drop that low while still being the official flagship camera of the Pentax line? thanks, germar

10-13-2008, 05:46 AM	#41
soccerjoe5 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Philippines Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,343	I think I saw some K20D bodies on ebay from reputable dealers for as low as $799 And I got mine for $1100 a few months ago Oh well haha

10-13-2008, 06:21 AM	#42
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by germar Dragging this thread back on topic ... I note that Amazon has marked the K20D to a list of $999 USD as of Monday morning 10/13, with a sale cost of 864.28. So while the list was cut in a big way, it seems the retailers are holding steady at the mid 800 dollar area. I'm thinking that the retailers had already priced in the drop a few weeks ago, and there will not be another change with the street price because of this. Anyone agree? I'm not wishing bad things on the enconomy or Pentax as a company, but if sales stay slow I'm hoping we might see a rebate or a holiday discount that might bring this body down about another 100 dollars. I'd HAVE to pull the trigger at that point. Does anyone think that this body could possibly drop that low while still being the official flagship camera of the Pentax line? thanks, germar wait until the shi... K30D will hit the shelves - I bet you will be able to buy gently used K20Ds for ~USD 500s-600s...

10-13-2008, 07:27 AM	#44
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Come on... we all know it should be PETNAX

10-13-2008, 08:23 AM	#45
Prairie Dog Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada Photos: Gallery Posts: 109	When I purchased my K20D, the motivation was that I wanted one; the goods were worth the price charged at the time. I received the camera right away and began enjoying it. I received the Gear Up rebate, too. The rebate, in my estimation, was just extra as I am not motivated by rebates because they take too long and as often as not, are delayed or not honored, etc. I fully understood when purchasing the K20D, that the price would adjust, too, and, more than likely, probably downward. I have a K20D and it's spectacular. Now I'm going to go enjoy taking some pictures and not worry about past or future product or pricing.