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10-29-2019, 08:42 PM   #3151
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QuoteOriginally posted by mlt Quote
Unless either Sony has hid the development or it is not using a Sony sensor, 26 is going to be the size. Canon’s 32 is their own product
The rumor was that it would be the 26MP sensor used by Fuji, but Sony also makes 24MP BSI sensors that would be suitable with high readout and 4K video. We'll wait and see.

10-29-2019, 08:53 PM - 2 Likes   #3152
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
As far as I'm concerned, if you have to peek and peek, the 'problem' does not really exist. The only problems which exist are those that can be seen without our working.
The banding issue is not a "peek and peek" issue - it can be very evident even on cursory review of a photo:

(Sony A9 image)

10-30-2019, 01:42 AM   #3153
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
The banding issue is not a "peek and peek" issue - it can be very evident even on cursory review of a photo:

(Sony A9 image)
Yikes! Does this happen regularly?
10-30-2019, 02:01 AM   #3154
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
The banding issue is not a "peek and peek" issue - it can be very evident even on cursory review of a photo:

(Sony A9 image)
I think these problems comes when electronic shutter is used. That's one of the reasons why A9 Mark II have 10 fps with mechanical shutter compared to A9 which had 5fps. The banding issue is one of the reasons why action photographers keep using 1Dx or D5 at sport events.

10-30-2019, 02:58 AM   #3155
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Does anyone have good explanation of banding problem? I know I can use google but maybe this way will be faster to reach good quality article.
10-30-2019, 03:07 AM - 1 Like   #3156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I'm comparing what's available. The EF 70-200mm f2.8L III was released a year ago if I remember correctly. The optical formula may be old, but the elements inside have improved.



EOS RP and 6D Mark II share the same sensor, as well as EOS R and 5D Mark IV which share the same sensor. 5D has 2 slots card but fixed screen while EOS R has one slot card but articulated screen.

EOS RP weights 485 g (Body with Battery and Memory). 6D Mark II weights 755g (Body with Battery and Memory). This means that the difference in weight is 270g.



Canon RF 15-35mm f2.8L IS weights 840g. Canon EF 16-35mm f2.8L III weights 790g. Pentax 15-30mm f2.8 weights 1040 g and it's 5mm shorter at the long end. In which combination you put this lens (on EOS R or RP), the weight and size will be smaller than on DSLRs.



Depends on the lenses... See above the comparation between wide angle lenses and also the Canon option to reduce weight and size of the 70-200mm f2.8. Sure, there is also the Canon RF 28-70mm f2 which is big and heavy, but there isn't other similar lens to compare it with.
My understanding is that lens design is easier for cameras with short registration distances primarily for wide angle lenses, particularly those close in focal length to the registration distance. When it comes to zoom lenses, the same tech is available to SLR lens design as to MILCs. For whatever reason, camera brands for the most part have stuck with traditional lens designs which for 70-200 f2.8 lenses meant internal zooming. Of course this makes the lens bigger, but also reduces the chance of having dust get into the lens during the zooming action. Anyway, suffice to say that it isn't fact that Canon designed this for an MILC that made the lens smaller.

There aren't a lot of direct comparisons on the Canon side of things, but the Z mount has a few more. What I can say for sure is that the new mirrorless lenses aren't cheap at all. The new Z mount 85mm f1.8 is 800 dollars while the old 85mm f1.8 G is 425. Weight is surprisingly 470 grams for the Z mount 85 and only 350 grams for the F mount. Comparing the Z mount to F mount lenses of similar aperture you find that the Z mount lenses are 25 to 50 percent more expensive and weights, other than for wide angles, are equal or favor the F mount.

As far as the battery life issue, you are clearly someone shoots more than he frames (I don't mean this as a negative). Someone like myself who takes fewer images, but will frame up a scene only to decide I am at the wrong spot and never even take a photo, will have very different number of frames capture to battery life. The dynamic range is a big issue for landscape photographers because I don't really care about jpeg previews because I don't use them. Most sensors out there can certainly capture 12 to 13 EVs of dynamic range at base iso and the tiny EVFs fall way short of giving you a real preview of what the sensor is capturing. Yes, you can figure it out over time and work around it, but it certainly isn't ideal.

Regardless, as you said in another post, both types of camera design are going to be around for quite awhile and certainly SLRs aren't going away any time soon. They may be more expensive for camera brands to manufacture, but they have certain advantages that photographers appreciate too.

---------- Post added 10-30-19 at 06:09 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by taktoon Quote
Does anyone have good explanation of banding problem? I know I can use google but maybe this way will be faster to reach good quality article.
My understanding is that when you have a large number of PDAF points on the sensor they can show up in the image in certain situations -- particularly back lit, wide aperture shots. Sony has tried to use software to mask them out, but it doesn't always work perfectly.
10-30-2019, 03:13 AM   #3157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My understanding is that lens design is easier for cameras with short registration distances primarily for wide angle lenses, particularly those close in focal length to the registration distance. When it comes to zoom lenses, the same tech is available to SLR lens design as to MILCs. For whatever reason, camera brands for the most part have stuck with traditional lens designs which for 70-200 f2.8 lenses meant internal zooming. Of course this makes the lens bigger, but also reduces the chance of having dust get into the lens during the zooming action. Anyway, suffice to say that it isn't fact that Canon designed this for an MILC that made the lens smaller.

There aren't a lot of direct comparisons on the Canon side of things, but the Z mount has a few more. What I can say for sure is that the new mirrorless lenses aren't cheap at all. The new Z mount 85mm f1.8 is 800 dollars while the old 85mm f1.8 G is 425. Weight is surprisingly 470 grams for the Z mount 85 and only 350 grams for the F mount. Comparing the Z mount to F mount lenses of similar aperture you find that the Z mount lenses are 25 to 50 percent more expensive and weights, other than for wide angles, are equal or favor the F mount.

As far as the battery life issue, you are clearly someone shoots more than he frames (I don't mean this as a negative). Someone like myself who takes fewer images, but will frame up a scene only to decide I am at the wrong spot and never even take a photo, will have very different number of frames capture to battery life. The dynamic range is a big issue for landscape photographers because I don't really care about jpeg previews because I don't use them. Most sensors out there can certainly capture 12 to 13 EVs of dynamic range at base iso and the tiny EVFs fall way short of giving you a real preview of what the sensor is capturing. Yes, you can figure it out over time and work around it, but it certainly isn't ideal.

Regardless, as you said in another post, both types of camera design are going to be around for quite awhile and certainly SLRs aren't going away any time soon. They may be more expensive for camera brands to manufacture, but they have certain advantages that photographers appreciate too.

---------- Post added 10-30-19 at 06:09 AM ----------



My understanding is that when you have a large number of PDAF points on the sensor they can show up in the image in certain situations -- particularly back lit, wide aperture shots. Sony has tried to use software to mask them out, but it doesn't always work perfectly.
This is also my understanding, would be nice to see some more scientific explanation and sample situations when this phenomena occurs.

10-30-2019, 03:19 AM - 1 Like   #3158
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QuoteOriginally posted by taktoon Quote
This is also my understanding, would be nice to see some more scientific explanation and sample situations when this phenomena occurs.
The particular image posted had banding due to some combination of electronic shutter and LED lighting in the stadium it was shot at. It seems to be an issue with artificial lighting combined with high shutter speeds and silent shutter mode. Silent Shutter Banding | Enthusiast Photography Blog

PD AF striping is a separate issue that also afflicts certain Sony cameras more than others.
10-30-2019, 05:44 AM - 1 Like   #3159
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
Yikes! Does this happen regularly?
I haven't really followed the issue much, only that it's under specific lighting conditions. I just wanted to demonstrate that the banding issue is not a "pixel peeping" thing.

There's also a banding issue with some Olympus bodies using the Panasonic 20/1.7 lens and shooting high ISO. That was a few years ago so I guess there's been a fix, but odd that it's actually a lens-body issue.

Cameras are weird and complicated Every brand has its issues.
10-30-2019, 06:06 AM   #3160
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I haven't really followed the issue much, only that it's under specific lighting conditions. I just wanted to demonstrate that the banding issue is not a "pixel peeping" thing.

There's also a banding issue with some Olympus bodies using the Panasonic 20/1.7 lens and shooting high ISO. That was a few years ago so I guess there's been a fix, but odd that it's actually a lens-body issue.

Cameras are weird and complicated Every brand has its issues.
Indoor lighting flickers bright and less bright - that is a fact, but we cannot see it because it is fast - just as we do not see flickering on TV because it is so fast - but that is a special case. Most photos are not taken under indoors lighting - where voltage fluctuates at line speed - just as most photos are not taken on a TV tube. These are special cases that 'electronic shutter' cannot handle, just as it doesn't handle very fast motion well {fan or propeller}, but these are not cases that we as amateurs face often, if at all, but someone who uses 'electronic shutter' regularly knows {like Q-7 with adapted lens} knows what they are.
10-30-2019, 06:07 AM   #3161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My understanding is that lens design is easier for cameras with short registration distances primarily for wide angle lenses, particularly those close in focal length to the registration distance. When it comes to zoom lenses, the same tech is available to SLR lens design as to MILCs. For whatever reason, camera brands for the most part have stuck with traditional lens designs which for 70-200 f2.8 lenses meant internal zooming. Of course this makes the lens bigger, but also reduces the chance of having dust get into the lens during the zooming action. Anyway, suffice to say that it isn't fact that Canon designed this for an MILC that made the lens smaller.
The most challenging lens for Canon DSLRs was the 11-24mm f4L lens. Canon representatives said it in an interview. We have to wait and see if they will say the same when the RF version will become available. But the general impression which Canon representatives let us believe does seem to make your affirmation regarding the lens design for wide angle lenses correct.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There aren't a lot of direct comparisons on the Canon side of things, but the Z mount has a few more. What I can say for sure is that the new mirrorless lenses aren't cheap at all.
Let's compare the 5D Mark IV, EOS R, K1 Mark II, A7R IV, D850 with the f2.8 trinity of lenses and see the difference in weight and prices. It seems that Canon prices are similar, maybe around 600$ more if you replace EOS R with a 900$ more expensive camera.

Canon 5D Mark IV weights 870g with battery and card. Canon EF 16-35mm f2.8L weights 790g. Canon EF 24-70mm f2.8L weights 805g. Canon EF 70-200mm f2.8L weights 1480g. Total weight = 3,95kg Total price = 9899$
Canon EOS R weights 660g with battery and card. Canon RF 15-35mm f2.8L weights 840g. Canon RF 24-70mm f2.8L weights 900g. Canon RF 70-200mm f2.8L weights 1070g. Total weight = 3,47kg Total price = 9600$
Pentax K1 Mark II weights 985g with battery and card. Pentax 15-30mm f2.8 weights 1040g. Pentax 24-70mm f2.8 weights 787g. Pentax 70-200mm f2.8 weights 1755g. Total weight = 4,57kg Total price = 6541$
Sony A7R IV weights 740g with battery and card. Sony 16-35mm f2.8 GM weights 680g. Sony 24-70mm f2.8 GM weights 886g. Sony 70-200mm f2.8 GM weights 1480g. Total weight = 3,79kg Total price = 10496$
Nikon D850 weights 975g with battery and card. Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 weights 1000g. Nikon 24-70mm f2.8 weights 1070g. Nikon 70-200mm f2.8 weights 1430g. Total weight = 4,48g Total price = 10594$

Note: the above prices are the release prices, not the current prices.

Nikon Z doesn't have the f2.8 trinity released yet, so we can't add it to this comparation.



QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As far as the battery life issue, you are clearly someone shoots more than he frames (I don't mean this as a negative). Someone like myself who takes fewer images, but will frame up a scene only to decide I am at the wrong spot and never even take a photo, will have very different number of frames capture to battery life.
At a marathon I was attending 2 weeks ago, I was panning most of the time because it became boring after the first 200 shots to freeze the athletes. I was framing a lot and I took the shots only when I liked the look of the athletes. Being more than 200 athletes in race, I was able to choose which one to photograph. When I shoot birds, I tend to keep the af on the bird and take the shot when the bird is preparing to take off. These are the times when I keep my camera at eye level and frame more than I shoot. I don't shoot landscapes or street and I don't know in these 2 cases how would I use my camera. In vacations I'm more after candid portraits or birds and sometimes I'm after building details.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The dynamic range is a big issue for landscape photographers because I don't really care about jpeg previews because I don't use them. Most sensors out there can certainly capture 12 to 13 EVs of dynamic range at base iso and the tiny EVFs fall way short of giving you a real preview of what the sensor is capturing. Yes, you can figure it out over time and work around it, but it certainly isn't ideal.
I don't know if I understood this correctly, but I had a few BIF occasions where the dynamic range of the scene was easier to shoot by looking through EVF. Again, I don't know if we talk about the same thing here...

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Regardless, as you said in another post, both types of camera design are going to be around for quite awhile and certainly SLRs aren't going away any time soon. They may be more expensive for camera brands to manufacture, but they have certain advantages that photographers appreciate too.
I do hope DSLRs will stay for long time and the rummors about a Canon 5D Mark V makes me believe that we will see at least another generation of DSLRs from Canon and Nikon. And again, I'm hoping that Pentax will do some magic in terms of DSLRs and push Canon and Nikon to release DSLRs more years to come. I'm sure that combining IBIS and pixel shift from K1 with focus stalking from D850 with dual pixel af from Canon can make future DSLRs appealing to a lot of photographers. And who knows what other goodies can be added to DSLRs?!

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 10-30-2019 at 06:32 AM.
10-30-2019, 07:18 AM   #3162
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
The most challenging lens for Canon DSLRs was the 11-24mm f4L lens. Canon representatives said it in an interview. We have to wait and see if they will say the same when the RF version will become available. But the general impression which Canon representatives let us believe does seem to make your affirmation regarding the lens design for wide angle lenses correct.



Let's compare the 5D Mark IV, EOS R, K1 Mark II, A7R IV, D850 with the f2.8 trinity of lenses and see the difference in weight and prices. It seems that Canon prices are similar, maybe around 600$ more if you replace EOS R with a 900$ more expensive camera.

Canon 5D Mark IV weights 870g with battery and card. Canon EF 16-35mm f2.8L weights 790g. Canon EF 24-70mm f2.8L weights 805g. Canon EF 70-200mm f2.8L weights 1480g. Total weight = 3,95kg Total price = 9899$
Canon EOS R weights 660g with battery and card. Canon RF 15-35mm f2.8L weights 840g. Canon RF 24-70mm f2.8L weights 900g. Canon RF 70-200mm f2.8L weights 1070g. Total weight = 3,47kg Total price = 9600$
Pentax K1 Mark II weights 985g with battery and card. Pentax 15-30mm f2.8 weights 1040g. Pentax 24-70mm f2.8 weights 787g. Pentax 70-200mm f2.8 weights 1755g. Total weight = 4,57kg Total price = 6541$
Sony A7R IV weights 740g with battery and card. Sony 16-35mm f2.8 GM weights 680g. Sony 24-70mm f2.8 GM weights 886g. Sony 70-200mm f2.8 GM weights 1480g. Total weight = 3,79kg Total price = 10496$
Nikon D850 weights 975g with battery and card. Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 weights 1000g. Nikon 24-70mm f2.8 weights 1070g. Nikon 70-200mm f2.8 weights 1430g. Total weight = 4,48g Total price = 10594$

Note: the above prices are the release prices, not the current prices.

Nikon Z doesn't have the f2.8 trinity released yet, so we can't add it to this comparation.





At a marathon I was attending 2 weeks ago, I was panning most of the time because it became boring after the first 200 shots to freeze the athletes. I was framing a lot and I took the shots only when I liked the look of the athletes. Being more than 200 athletes in race, I was able to choose which one to photograph. When I shoot birds, I tend to keep the af on the bird and take the shot when the bird is preparing to take off. These are the times when I keep my camera at eye level and frame more than I shoot. I don't shoot landscapes or street and I don't know in these 2 cases how would I use my camera. In vacations I'm more after candid portraits or birds and sometimes I'm after building details.



I don't know if I understood this correctly, but I had a few BIF occasions where the dynamic range of the scene was easier to shoot by looking through EVF. Again, I don't know if we talk about the same thing here...



I do hope DSLRs will stay for long time and the rummors about a Canon 5D Mark V makes me believe that we will see at least another generation of DSLRs from Canon and Nikon. And again, I'm hoping that Pentax will do some magic in terms of DSLRs and push Canon and Nikon to release DSLRs more years to come. I'm sure that combining IBIS and pixel shift from K1 with focus stalking from D850 with dual pixel af from Canon can make future DSLRs appealing to a lot of photographers. And who knows what other goodies can be added to DSLRs?!
Someone already mentioned, but your bringing the 5D MK IV, D850 and K-1 II into the situation is a bit duplicitous. As nice as the Z and R cameras are, they have one card slot and do not have the build levels that SLRs you mentioned have. The correct comparisons are the 6D II and D750 which are of course quite a bit lighter.
10-30-2019, 07:37 AM   #3163
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Honestly using the number of card slots to determine the segment doesn't make a lot of sense, but it seems to be a more or less accepted metric of what makes a "professional" camera, so...

As a funny thing regarding the weight comparison, a "typical" kit of 24-70+70-200 gives you the same weight whether you use Canon EF or Sony E
10-30-2019, 07:42 AM   #3164
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10-30-2019, 07:50 AM   #3165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Someone already mentioned, but your bringing the 5D MK IV, D850 and K-1 II into the situation is a bit duplicitous. As nice as the Z and R cameras are, they have one card slot and do not have the build levels that SLRs you mentioned have. The correct comparisons are the 6D II and D750 which are of course quite a bit lighter.
Lensrental tested both Z and R cameras in terms of build quality and both came similar in this regard to 5D and D850. Both R and Z cameras share the same sensor as the DSLRs in the comparation. A lot of people (myself included) say that the R has an overall better performance than 5D Mark IV and it's way better than 6D Mark II. I don't know about the Z vs. D850. Pentax also has a full frame DSLR and that's why it was added into comparation. Ok, we will leave Pentax out because I don't want to start a debate between brands.

Replace 5D Mark IV with 6D Mark II and you will see that the EOS R with the new f2.8 trinity is 450$ more expensive than 6D Mark II with the f2.8 EF trinity of lenses. Replace the EOS R with EOS RP and the total price of the camera with the trinity of lenses is pretty much the same as the one of 6D Mark II combo. So, where is that big difference that you and others talk about when you keep saying that mirrorless is more expensive? More expensive than Pentax? Sure. But Canon, Nikon and Sony always were more expensive. As you see in the comparation above, Canon mirrorless is similar in prices to their DSLRs. Sony is also similar in prices to Nikon DSLRs and it's more expensive than Canon (DSLRs or mirrorless).

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 10-30-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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