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09-25-2019, 11:42 AM   #1066
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
I can't see how your capture, post capture dicotomy is relevant. A raw file is post capture data, it has passed though the camera pipeline.
...and as such is opaque in regards to what was done in the pipeline. Sorry for the clumsy wording of capture vs. post-capture. I will edit to better reflect my intent.

You seem to have deeper knowledge than most. Out of curiosity, do you have experience taking and submitting images to Photons to Photos? If so, I would be happy to continue this discussion via private message.


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09-25-2019, 12:02 PM   #1067
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
...and as such is opaque in regards to what was done in the pipeline.
It's not opaque because it's visible in the resulting data (raw file). That's what photons to photos does. Show you what is visible in the data. Not visible to the naked eye mind you but to computational analysis.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You seem to have deeper knowledge than most. Out of curiosity, do you have experience taking and submitting images to Photons to Photos? If so, I would be happy to continue this discussion via private message.
I contacted him about sending raws but I was a bit late and someone else got there first with my cameras. I'm by no means an expert at this stuff, but have come across explanations by Bill that sounds like the correct tools and nothing really adventurous math/analysis wise. There could certainly be things wrong with his work that I'm unable to grasp but I could at least identify misunderstandings of what is going on.
09-25-2019, 12:30 PM - 2 Likes   #1068
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QuoteOriginally posted by sbh Quote



The 80's calculator screen I don't use. Just because it's so hard to see and read if there is a large screen on the back displaying it much better.

However, with a fixed back screen, a larger top screen makes sense when the back screen is hard to access.

It would be great if it was an actual pixel display instead of that calculator style.
OMG, that’s exactly my thoughts as well. That Fuji (?) screen type is really nice. No need to keep rolling out the same parts when there are now alternative options that look great.

---------- Post added 09-26-19 at 07:46 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Perhaps I'm not giving readers enough credit but I have a sneaking feeling that some people arrive to a review with an open mind, do not know about the subtle but effective connotations game DPReview is playing which sometimes isn't even subtle ("large and intimidating" (K-1 II) as opposed to "not a petite camera" (D850)), and come away thinking that Ricoh is playing dirty games with raw file manipulation. It sometimes doesn't take much for someone to categorically rule out a camera and it seems so easy to avoid this particular scenario.
Not sure if any DSLR maker has offered eye AF in optical viewfinder mode? Eye AF is a major industry feature these days, as are good video capabilities as well. It’s going to be harder to score review points without these capabilities.

Marketing wise, regardless of the legitimacy, a good DPReview show/review is important. As you say, many new buyers are going to head there for information to support their purchase decisions.

Not sure what it’s like overseas, but in New Zealand it is getting increasingly difficult to purchase pentax products, (not in major chain stores etc) so I’m not sure really how or why any new/fresh purchaser would end up at Pentax products, with poor reviews and with the current marketing strategy.

---------- Post added 09-26-19 at 07:51 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Respectfully, I think that's very optimistic

I'd guess it will launch at $1,300 - 1,400 (body only), settling down to a street price of around $1,200 once initial demand slows. You might see it near $999 a couple of years after launch during discount events, or when a MkII version is announced (if one is announced).
Pentax has been a bit silly with their launch pricing in the past. They have often gone up against higher bracket cameras, due to a higher initial price, in scored negatively in reviews.

Then a few months later dropped the price, which then positioned them against equivalent competition, where they do really well and the Pentax feature set just shines.

By which time however everybody’s moved on and the camera is tarnished with poor comparative reviews. The K-S1 was very much like this, but was a strong proposition camera one it was positioned properly in the market.
09-25-2019, 12:58 PM   #1069
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I was merely responding to another member's view on possible pricing and request for predictions. I based my guess (because that's all it is) on where I think a high end APS-C model would need to be priced, given the existence of both the KP and K-1II. No offence intended, or - so far as I can tell - harm done
That is not a criticism against you particularly but a statement. No offence of course. I do not buy only according to the price in absolute terms but about a need/price ratio which serve my interests. Nevertheless, just let's wait and see...

09-25-2019, 12:59 PM - 2 Likes   #1070
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
He works with raws basically using known algorithms to statistically detect patterns. Some of these patterns tell of what algos have manipulated the data. The image manipulation algos aren't perfect so leave traces or errors/artifacts that act as fingerprints.
The problem is that all he can say is that a certain type of filtering was applied to the RAW data, on the image noise.
He doesn't observe any loss of detail because there isn't any in the test images. We don't know if or how much detail was lost. We don't know if the same processing is applied regardless of the image content.
Unfortunately his effort is useful rather for bashing an excellent camera, rather for any practical purpose.
09-25-2019, 01:02 PM   #1071
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
How about a KP + battery grip? Won't help the buffer situation, but you'll get much longer battery life.
Yeah, thanks. It's worth pointing out the KP grip I suppose - and neat that it accepts LI-90 - but I don't think that would work for me. I guess I can still hope for some sort of tilting screen on the new flagship for now - at least until the official specs are released. No sense crossing the bridge until we get to the river...
09-25-2019, 01:13 PM   #1072
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The problem is that all he can say is that a certain type of filtering was applied to the RAW data, on the image noise.
He doesn't observe any loss of detail because there isn't any in the test images. We don't know if or how much detail was lost. We don't know if the same processing is applied regardless of the image content.
Unfortunately his effort is useful rather for bashing an excellent camera, rather for any practical purpose.
You are correct. What is known though is that the detected patterns make the files more brittle and unsuitable for further manipulation (noise reduction) because the data contains false patterns. The question about whether this matters practically is up to reviewers and users and the answers should vary. Same goes for the flip screen question

09-25-2019, 01:20 PM - 1 Like   #1073
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Not when taking the superficial view that "starting with ISO 640, there will be loss of detail in raw files".
[...]
It took someone outside DPReview's staff to recognise the raw manipulation in an objective manner
I'm talking about the image; you're talking about superficial views and prejudice against a brand.

No... there is a subjective component of those measurements, and a very much emotional response to it.
09-25-2019, 01:44 PM   #1074
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The problem is that all he can say is that a certain type of filtering was applied to the RAW data, on the image noise.
...and even then, the analysis makes certain assumptions about the nature of data shaping/trimming before the A/D converter and the nature of the baseline noise characteristics for the sensor being used. There are limits to detecting pattern particularly when the actual sensor specs are unknown and there is poor control over generation of the source RAW files.


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09-25-2019, 02:03 PM   #1075
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This announcement has restored my faith in the Pentax brand quite a bit. Every top-of-the-line APS-C Pentax since the K10D has been a cracker. I am looking forward to seeing more detail. I could be talked into getting one.

Even if I don't buy one, it will surely cause a drop in the price of the K3 and K3 II. That would be a good thing for me.

Just don't mention the Canon EOS RP with K mount adapter full frame mirrorless elephant in the comer of the room.
09-25-2019, 02:11 PM   #1076
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Have you checked these images?
Yes. The same features are still there.
09-25-2019, 02:16 PM   #1077
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
Even if I don't buy one, it will surely cause a drop in the price of the K3 and K3 II. That would be a good thing for me.
The K-3ii was officially discontinued a year and a half ago, so if it hasn't been on run out sale then there might be a push for this around black friday this year perhaps?


QuoteOriginally posted by Wasp Quote
Just don't mention the Canon EOS RP with K mount adapter full frame mirrorless elephant in the comer of the room.
There are multiple elephants in the room. It's a very big room, and there are adaptors for all mounts.
I noticed this started pushing up the value of legacy Pentax glass few years ago, as they can be used on many cameras now, not just Pentax bodies, and they are popular for video too, again not on a Pentax body.
09-25-2019, 02:23 PM   #1078
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Respectfully, I think that's very optimistic

I'd guess it will launch at $1,300 - 1,400 (body only), settling down to a street price of around $1,200 once initial demand slows. You might see it near $999 a couple of years after launch during discount events, or when a MkII version is announced (if one is announced).

If it's any less than this, I'll be pleasantly surprised, but surprised nonetheless. If it's much more, it may be too expensive for the target market...


Yeah you're right. I didn't realize that new KPs were still going for as high as they are. Your price range sounds more plausible.
09-25-2019, 04:33 PM - 2 Likes   #1079
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QuoteOriginally posted by wed7 Quote
I am afraid, the addition of the top screen has only justified the fixed rear screen
Quite possibly. I'll admit I could readily live without the top LCD though it is awfully handy in some situations, principally shooting at night or in
the dark. I don't own any cameras with flippy screens but can definitely see the use. I'm doing lots of product work at the moment and a flippy
screen would come in handy with the camera on a tripod and at waist level.

PREDICTION: The K-2 will not have a flippy screen but the K-2II will............ Marketing 101 at work.
09-25-2019, 04:46 PM - 1 Like   #1080
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QuoteOriginally posted by richandfleur Quote
Not sure what it’s like overseas, but in New Zealand it is getting increasingly difficult to purchase pentax products, (not in major chain stores etc) so I’m not sure really how or why any new/fresh purchaser would end up at Pentax products, with poor reviews and with the current marketing strategy.[COLOR="Silver"]
The local importer / agent does absolutely nothing for the brand.
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