Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Closed Thread
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
11-15-2019, 09:31 AM - 1 Like   #181
Pentaxian
photoptimist's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,113
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Really? Don't electronic manufacturers perform accelerated aging tests on their designs before releasing those designs to market?
Would camera manufacturers just put products to market and then see if they need to grow their after sales / repair department depending on the amount of customer returns?
They almost certainly do some testing to ensure that the rate of failure is less than some percentage threshold for the expected amount of use. How well those tests catch every type of failure under every pattern of use is another matter. BTW, Sony's warranty reserves run about 2% of hardware sales so if the average warranty repair costs 50% of the cost of the product, then some 4% of Sony products are failing within the warranty period. (If warranty fixes are cheaper, then the % rate of failure must be higher.)

Ironically, "accelerated aging" tests can totally fail to catch some types of problems. Back the 80s, some hard disks suffered "stiction" in which the disk head became stuck to the platter when the computer was off for a long time. That failure mode could never be detected by accelerated aging test because the failure was caused by non-use! The sticky solenoid problem on some Pentax cameras seems to be a kind of stiction issue, too. Casual users put their camera away for days/weeks/months at a time during which the solenoid grows sticky.

11-15-2019, 11:20 AM - 2 Likes   #182
mlt
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,159
Still, it would be interesting to see an independent lab do long term use tests on cameras - i.e. test the shutter count claims, check for sensor changes over extended usage, etc. Stress testing of digital cameras after they are released, other than showering with water, seems to be a ”who cares” proposition by review sites.
11-15-2019, 11:28 AM   #183
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,126
QuoteOriginally posted by mlt Quote
Still, it would be interesting to see an independent lab do long term use tests on cameras - i.e. test the shutter count claims, check for sensor changes over extended usage, etc. Stress testing of digital cameras after they are released, other than showering with water, seems to be a ”who cares” proposition by review sites.
Yes, we need to know more than just "shutter life". With the K-30/50, Pentax has demonstrated that there is more to 'life' .... but the testing can be very expensive and 'we' often do not even know what to test.
11-15-2019, 11:40 AM   #184
Pentaxian
photoptimist's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,113
QuoteOriginally posted by mlt Quote
Still, it would be interesting to see an independent lab do long term use tests on cameras - i.e. test the shutter count claims, check for sensor changes over extended usage, etc. Stress testing of digital cameras after they are released, other than showering with water, seems to be a ”who cares” proposition by review sites.
It's not so much a "who cares" attitude by a "who pays for it" problem. The challenge with tests like that is in the high cost of buying a sufficient statistical sample size of camera bodies and building a test rig to use & measure the bodies.

That said, Roger Cicala at LensRentals does do copy variation studies of lenses and even some for bodies (Lens Rentals | Notes on Lens and Camera Variation). His company could easily gather data on how camera age/use impacts IQ. Each time a camera is rented, he could shoot a quick test shot when it was returned (part of confirming the camera is undamaged), compare the image to previous test shots over the life of the camera, and note how the months and shutter count affected things. But it wouldn't be perfect data for assessing the life span of MILCs because there's no way to tell if the user did 5 seconds of EVF time per shot or 5 minutes of EVF time (60X the usage of the sensor and electronics!).

11-15-2019, 12:42 PM   #185
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 12,177
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Ironically, "accelerated aging" tests can totally fail to catch some types of problems. Back the 80s, some hard disks suffered "stiction" in which the disk head became stuck to the platter when the computer was off for a long time. That failure mode could never be detected by accelerated aging test because the failure was caused by non-use! The sticky solenoid problem on some Pentax cameras seems to be a kind of stiction issue, too. Casual users put their camera away for days/weeks/months at a time during which the solenoid grows sticky.
That's a case of failure for non-use. In the case of mirrorless, you were referring to failures induced by thermal cycles, which can be reproduced with thermal cycles applied externally.
11-18-2019, 04:59 AM - 1 Like   #186
New Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England
Posts: 5
Full frame lenses - wither a 100-400mm/F4 or a 200-600mm/F4

QuoteOriginally posted by Smoke665 Quote
The place where I think Pentax is really missing the boat is on the full frame glass lineup. They're already well into the second generation of the K1, yet offer little in glass options.
Will be meeting Pentax President this Saturday Nov 23rd, with many others at SRS Microsystems (North London) so who knows what he will say.
11-18-2019, 06:03 AM   #187
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Genf
Posts: 1,138
QuoteOriginally posted by petercf Quote
Will be meeting Pentax President this Saturday Nov 23rd, with many others at SRS Microsystems (North London) so who knows what he will say.
Dont hesitate to debrief us a bit Peter!

11-18-2019, 08:01 AM   #188
mlt
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,159
Definitely let us know what they say about future lenses. Should be an interesting chat.
11-18-2019, 01:08 PM   #189
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Nov 2015
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,185
QuoteOriginally posted by petercf Quote
Will be meeting Pentax President this Saturday Nov 23rd, with many others at SRS Microsystems (North London) so who knows what he will say.
For some reason, whenever I hear of an “important person” saying a few words, I think of Albus Dumbledore...

Maybe I’ve just gotten too cynical, or all the “important people” have simply become good at saying nothing, but I hope there’s something good that comes from the meeting...

-Eric
11-20-2019, 03:59 PM   #190
Pentaxian
MMVIII's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: EU
Posts: 1,121
these are tough times for camera manufacturers. Not so good news from Olympus
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-19/olympus-job-cuts-may-come...ch-intensifies
11-20-2019, 04:32 PM   #191
Pentaxian
Mistral75's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 7,507
...nor from Nikon:

Rumor: Nikon is supposedly killing some of their sport optics product lines - Nikon Rumors
12-02-2019, 05:48 AM   #192
Senior Member
xmeda's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brno
Posts: 295
Manufacturers need to adapt. Sony caught the chance while Canon and Nikon struggled. But these companies are so big, that they can overcome even 2-3 years of loosing money. They will restructuralize portfolio and workforce in year or two to be profitable again. Canon is selling huge amount of their new EOS-M cameras for example..



Question is Ricoh.. Pentax part seem to be glued in one position waiting for some market miracle, while Pentax cameras are now almost like unicorns. Can't see them in shops, can't see advertisements, can't see them used by people. (And there were times like 8-10 years ago when I had no problem to find several Pentax users while shooting some events around.
12-02-2019, 06:49 AM   #193
Pentaxian
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 23,126
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
It's not so much a "who cares" attitude by a "who pays for it" problem. The challenge with tests like that is in the high cost of buying a sufficient statistical sample size of camera bodies and building a test rig to use & measure the bodies.

That said, Roger Cicala at LensRentals does do copy variation studies of lenses and even some for bodies (Lens Rentals | Notes on Lens and Camera Variation). His company could easily gather data on how camera age/use impacts IQ. Each time a camera is rented, he could shoot a quick test shot when it was returned (part of confirming the camera is undamaged), compare the image to previous test shots over the life of the camera, and note how the months and shutter count affected things. But it wouldn't be perfect data for assessing the life span of MILCs because there's no way to tell if the user did 5 seconds of EVF time per shot or 5 minutes of EVF time (60X the usage of the sensor and electronics!).
If they use lab tests, they need to know how to "accelerate time"? For example, in the case of my K-30, I don't know how anyone would have guessed that time would caused the solenoid to age - and I don't know if even now they know what aspects of time cause it to age; over-and-over again, we have seen the age of a camera to be measured in "shutter clicks", and yet the K-30 seems to age better if it has more 'Shutter clicks".
12-03-2019, 07:35 AM - 1 Like   #194
Senior Member
xmeda's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Brno
Posts: 295
Testing procedures are quite sophisticated. They can do hundreds of thousands of various operations with the camera in automated way and add cold, heat or moisture. They are shaking it in vibration tests, droptests, dust chambers, EMC etc. SW is tested intensively of course during such procedures.

But as has been said, it cannot detect every potential problem. This is why some prototype cameras are issued to selected photographers about 1/2 year before release to test them in real conditions. Unfortunately this electronic is getting old quickly and no manufacturer can afford to keep camera in testlabs for year or two. They need it on market ASAP. Including some acceptable amount of risk. And I bet that they are also relying on average user behavior. Largerst part of DSLR owners take below 30-40k photos before they upgrade to new model. Only few guys are using camera for 10 years or more. And only few guys are able to do 150-200k pics with such camera body. So even if these few cameras fail somehow, it is still statistically insignificant.


Usually after few months on market many SW bugs are detected and fixed in firmware updates. HW issues are sometimes fixed during production too. Remember that faulty lens release button catch on K5 bodies? After some time they changed the design. Remember notorious SDM failures? During 2012 they changed the motor a bit (too late!) without any change in lens name or adding version.

Concerning the solenoid mentioned before it is horrible that this issue was not addressed in K50D when they already had a lot of issues developed during K30 model life. Maybe the decision was as described above... if average Joe with K30 does not more than 10k pics and replace camera with better after 2-3 years, then he is OK and some issues are checked in warranty...


But it damages brand image....
12-03-2019, 08:19 PM   #195
Pentaxian




Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Iloilo City
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,273
QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
Concerning the solenoid mentioned before it is horrible that this issue was not addressed in K50D when they already had a lot of issues developed during K30 model life. Maybe the decision was as described above... if average Joe with K30 does not more than 10k pics and replace camera with better after 2-3 years, then he is OK and some issues are checked in warranty...


But it damages brand image....
Yes, it does bring damage to the brand image. If not for this solenoid problem, the K-30 / 50 / 70 beats the crap out of all entry level cameras of all brands. It pushed me back from purchasing a much discounted K-S2 last July. I didn't like to inherit such problem.
Closed Thread

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
20mm, 50mm, brand, budget, business, camera, canon, care, condition, dslr, f/1.7, k-1, lens, lenses, life, money, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, people, picture, products, q2 pentax, recipe, results for q2, ricoh, time
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Q1 2019 Financial Reports - Pentax still not doomed. Kunzite Pentax News and Rumors 217 08-05-2019 12:23 PM
Ricoh Financial results - FY2017/03 Kunzite Pentax News and Rumors 373 04-28-2017 06:10 AM
Ricoh Imaging is not doomed (or: Ricoh Financial Results Q1 2016) Kunzite Pentax News and Rumors 69 10-24-2015 10:31 AM
Ricoh Financial Results Q3 2014 JPT Photographic Industry and Professionals 18 02-16-2014 12:14 PM
Pentax Financial results Q1 FY14 Zav Pentax News and Rumors 38 08-20-2013 05:44 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:47 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top