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01-06-2020, 03:18 PM   #1261
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Perhaps as cameras grow more computationally powerful they will do so. But large-sensor cameras have much more data to process.
True indeed.

01-06-2020, 03:27 PM   #1262
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Perhaps as cameras grow more computationally powerful they will do so. But large-sensor cameras have much more data to process.
Not as much as you might think.

My iPhone8 seems to create 4032x3024 images
My Pentax KP seems to create 6016x4000 images.

That is twice as many pixels to process for the KP, despite the fact that the sensor on the KP is much larger.

Last edited by reh321; 01-06-2020 at 03:35 PM.
01-06-2020, 03:31 PM - 1 Like   #1263
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Although the data points are only twice as much, the actual data to process are much more. Most of the algorithmes need more iterations on a picture with more information on it, no matter how many data points are on it.
01-06-2020, 03:33 PM - 2 Likes   #1264
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Not as much as you might think.

My iPhone8 seems to create 4032x3024 images
My Pentax KP seems to create 6016x4000 images.

That is one twice as many pixels to process, despite the fact that the sensor on the KP is much larger.
It's not only the linear dimensions the device needs to process, but also the bit depth.

01-06-2020, 03:35 PM   #1265
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
’Baked In’ is a myth, because it simply means the photographer cannot reverse the process - so what? People do not want to add original noise back into an image, Pentax has said they use info not in the ‘raw’ file, and the process as implemented by Pentax does not ‘eat stars’.
QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Perhaps as cameras grow more computationally powerful they will do so
With baked in NR you have to buy a new camera to take advantage of software improvements. You also can't choose what algorithms to use depending on scene and output. A camera manufacturer can't provide all the flexibility and experimentation of the worlds software developers in the camera. Phones can load third party apps and are designed for constant updates. Cameras can't do that.
01-06-2020, 03:41 PM - 1 Like   #1266
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
With baked in NR you have to buy a new camera to take advantage of software improvements. You also can't choose what algorithms to use depending on scene and output. A camera manufacturer can't provide all the flexibility and experimentation of the worlds software developers in the camera. Phones can load third party apps and are designed for constant updates. Cameras can't do that.
'Baked In' simply means you cannot change it. Punct.

Whether the unchangeable changes come from hardware or software does not matter at all.

Software is usually changed for updates; be it firmware on a camera or a app on a camera does not matter at all.

Whether you change noise, or noise and levels {as the 'accelerator' does} does not matter at all.
01-06-2020, 04:03 PM - 3 Likes   #1267
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People do not want to add noise back, but some people prefer adding a gentler noise reduction to preserve detail better. Whether it is a rational argument it's a completely different story; I wouldn't object to the NR applied by the K-1ii or the KP at all, but it seems to be a matter of principle* for some users.


*As long as it's Pentax doing it, because Pentax is an acceptable target... DPR doesn't give a thought to Sony or Nikon doing it. Oh well.
01-06-2020, 06:32 PM - 2 Likes   #1268
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I have heard only about Pentax in this regard - mostly complaints from those who are offended by the thought of not having 'raw' files be an exact transcript from the sensor.

I do know that Pentax has much better high ISO performance than Nikon and Canon do.

I always wonder how many of the folks who make noise about the noise reduction of the accelerator chips have ever spent time with a camera like the KP or K-1 II. I read enough to certainly twist at the prospect of doing the "wrong" thing when I upgraded my K-1 to the II, but now that I've used it, I'd never go back. And if I'm really after fine resolution, I'm not shooting at ISOs of 800 or higher, and that's when it kicks in.

01-06-2020, 07:18 PM - 2 Likes   #1269
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I believe Canon , Nikon and Sony have one chip doing the same as what Pentax do with 2 chip
Please read here what Digic from Canon do, seem like it's also an accelerator for me.
QuoteQuote:
As cameras increase in functionality, pixel counts and sophistication, the burden shouldered by DIGIC has increased as well. A recent example is autofocusing on the EOS R, which requires the image processor to process up to 40 times more data than the maximum required on the EOS 5D Mark IV during Live View shooting, a feat achieved by the new DIGIC 8 processor.
QuoteQuote:
While improvements to the capabilities of the image sensor certain play a large part in this, DIGIC controls the High ISO Speed Noise Reduction feature. It instantly separates noise and image information from vast quantities of image data and reduces the noise digitally, ensuring that even images shot at high ISO speeds are pristine with minimal digital noise.
5 Things Made Possible with DIGIC Image Processor

QuoteQuote:
EXPEED image-processing relates to all current camera ranges (DSLR, Nikon 1 and COOLPIX) and is often mentioned with a number that relates to the generation of image processing chip used. Newer generations have a higher number and introduce faster processing speeds and greater image quality among other improvements.
Using EXPEED as a foundation, the cameras image-processing system is optimised to ensure images meet diverse user requirements and a range of applications. EXPEED will play a major role in Nikon's image-processing technology and will be applied to every.
QuoteQuote:
Nikon's superior noise-reduction function realizes beautiful textures with minimized color noise. EXPEED 4 manages massive amounts of data at surprisingly high speeds, so you can enjoy uninterrupted shooting, knowing that the camera is handling all of the hard work for you.
And here Sony
QuoteQuote:
Sony’s original Clear RAW NR noise reduction algorithm suppresses colour noise and luminance noise in the RAW file to enable clear natural images with minimal distortion — even when shooting indoors or outdoors at twilight with high sensitivity.

......
01-06-2020, 07:22 PM   #1270
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QuoteOriginally posted by clickclick Quote
I always wonder how many of the folks who make noise about the noise reduction of the accelerator chips have ever spent time with a camera like the KP or K-1 II. I read enough to certainly twist at the prospect of doing the "wrong" thing when I upgraded my K-1 to the II, but now that I've used it, I'd never go back. And if I'm really after fine resolution, I'm not shooting at ISOs of 800 or higher, and that's when it kicks in.
I normally hear of the 'accelerator' in the context of Noise Reduction. Testing shows cameras with it also have an increase in Dynamic Range; most likely the color fidelity I've noticed {but is not tested, at least not in the lab studies I've seen} is also connected to the same 'accelerator' operation. In general, no matter what you look at, the 'accelerator' just improves higher ISO performance.
01-06-2020, 08:05 PM   #1271
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QuoteOriginally posted by clickclick Quote
I always wonder how many of the folks who make noise about the noise reduction of the accelerator chips have ever spent time with a camera like the KP or K-1 II. I read enough to certainly twist at the prospect of doing the "wrong" thing when I upgraded my K-1 to the II, but now that I've used it, I'd never go back. And if I'm really after fine resolution, I'm not shooting at ISOs of 800 or higher, and that's when it kicks in.
I have a K-70, which was the first Accelerator-equipped Pentax.
01-06-2020, 08:21 PM   #1272
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
I have a K-70, which was the first Accelerator-equipped Pentax.
Yep! Should have mentioned that one too. My other daughter has one of those, and likes it very much.
01-07-2020, 12:22 AM   #1273
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I normally hear of the 'accelerator' in the context of Noise Reduction. Testing shows cameras with it also have an increase in Dynamic Range; most likely the color fidelity I've noticed {but is not tested, at least not in the lab studies I've seen} is also connected to the same 'accelerator' operation. In general, no matter what you look at, the 'accelerator' just improves higher ISO performance.
IMO, the "accelerator" is called accelerator chip because it's an image pre-processor developped to take some of the sensor data processing off the load of the main image processing engine, so that to extend the technology life time of the old Pentax image processing platform. When Ricoh Imaging would replace the decade old Milbeaut engine to something like what Sony, Canon and Nikon are using, they'll drop the accelerator chip. I guess if the new Pentax K apsc model will have 4K video and UHS-II, chances are it won't have the current accelerator chip used in the KP.
01-07-2020, 03:42 AM   #1274
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As they said they do not concentrate on video, this is in wuestion though. We will see.
01-07-2020, 03:44 AM   #1275
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
It's not only the linear dimensions the device needs to process, but also the bit depth.
Yes definitely i ignore bit depth of Iphone8 though
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