New information about new flagship's selling date

MMVIII · 01-07-2020, 05:06 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by house

With baked in NR you have to buy a new camera to take advantage of software improvements. You also can't choose what algorithms to use depending on scene and output. A camera manufacturer can't provide all the flexibility and experimentation of the worlds software developers in the camera. Phones can load third party apps and are designed for constant updates. Cameras can't do that.

Let's keep baking for processing bread and cookies... Now, after quite some usage time of the KP or K1/II, has anyone anywhere any indication or maybe even an example of this magical software progress for the processing of K1 files that could have been visually enhanced in comparison to the same images from the K1II, where this software might have failed?
If not, is a constant whining about a hypothetical situation that could also after month of usage of the said camera processing not have been empiricallly presented really a wise thing to do? Just asking.

WorksAsIntended · 01-07-2020, 05:13 AM

Propably not I guess.

But most likely this will change in future when post processing advances (and this is a perfect ai task, so it will advance) there will be differences.

You have to ask your self though, if current raw data are still relevant for you in 10 years and if you will use the same camera at this point.

For me both will be a clear no. If technology advances significantly I will get a new camera in 5-10 years for sure and I dont start reprocessing old pictures.

In fact I at some point I declare a picture as done and do not touch it anymore. At this point I usually also just keep a jpg.

Kunzite · 01-07-2020, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by house

With baked in NR you have to buy a new camera to take advantage of software improvements. You also can't choose what algorithms to use depending on scene and output. A camera manufacturer can't provide all the flexibility and experimentation of the worlds software developers in the camera. Phones can load third party apps and are designed for constant updates. Cameras can't do that.

Sorry, but the above makes no sense whatsoever.
Pentax RAWs, as you definitely know, allows one as much processing as he wants; and actually require processing in order to get something usable. From using some defaults, to processing until there's no trace from the original data left; but you have to do something. Using external software.
This isn't going to change.

reh321 · 01-07-2020, 07:09 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by biz-engineer

IMO, the "accelerator" is called accelerator chip because it's an image pre-processor developped to take some of the sensor data processing off the load of the main image processing engine, so that to extend the technology life time of the old Pentax image processing platform. When Ricoh Imaging would replace the decade old Milbeaut engine to something like what Sony, Canon and Nikon are using, they'll drop the accelerator chip. I guess if the new Pentax K apsc model will have 4K video and UHS-II, chances are it won't have the current accelerator chip used in the KP.

but it will still have the processing. When Intel built the 8086 chip, they also built the 8087 and 8089 co-processors, the latter to do floating point operations and the former to do data-processing operations, and many early PC -type computers had a socket to allow the user to add the former. By the time Intel was ready to move forward yet again, they could include the 8087 in it, and the 8089 had proven not to be popular at all.

Likewise, ‘accelerator’ code may be included in the processors of future systems. Perhaps Canon and Nikon already do that, but we are the ones who have the controversy, which I am guessing is a result of Pentax’s starting processing midway so we can see a kink in the curves.

The one thing I am certain of is that the KP provides better Noise, Dynamic Range, and Color than the famed D500 does. Incidentally, Nikon users value the D750 for these things.

Last edited by reh321; 01-07-2020 at 07:27 AM.

Jean Poitiers · 01-07-2020, 07:22 AM

I drove past the local KFC the other day and I chuckled a bit ... that was a great post. Thanks again.

And wow ... 86 pages, so I have a lot of reading to catch up on ...

No, not really. It's here when it's here. Period.

Andrzej Makuch · 01-07-2020, 07:37 AM

Or is it time for the successor k-01? Could use a buster with an adapter K ...

reh321 · 01-07-2020, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch

Or is it time for the successor k-01? Could use a buster with an adapter K ...

Discussion of the K-01 and replacing it probably belongs over in the “Mirrorless” section - they even have a discussion already

What does it really take to create a mirrorless camera? - PentaxForums.com

Andrzej Makuch · 01-07-2020, 08:06 AM

Thanks! I'm going there already!

Not a Number · 01-07-2020, 08:07 AM

As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers.

reh321 · 01-07-2020, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by Not a Number

As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers.

Since we are talking about digital electronics, I would think a correct understanding would be that they use some information which is not contained in the 'raw' file.

house · 01-07-2020, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Not a Number

As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers.

I remember the blue thing. Anyone know what that is about? Is blue a difficult colour for sensors? Anyone noticed an improvement?

H. Sapiens · 01-07-2020, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by house

I remember the blue thing. Anyone know what that is about? Is blue a difficult colour for sensors? Anyone noticed an improvement?

I don't know anything about sensors, but in nature and in art blue has in fact a special status - for painters blue was exclusive and expensive, botanists have struggled growing blue tulips and roses etc. So maybe blue IS a difficult colour for the sensor for some reason ...

solitudebound · 01-07-2020, 09:57 AM

After seeing what Nikon just offered in the D780. Pentax is looking better than ever.

3500$ (CAD) in hand for a D780 body, that's insane. Sends shivers down my spine as to what they will mess up with the D6.
Pentax could grab a-lot or market share if they would just listen.

---------- Post added 01-07-20 at 10:08 AM ----------

Originally posted by Not a Number

As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers.

The higher band colours have a more narrow wavelength aka Blue up to UV. They travel further but get disrupted much easier and then you have other concerns such as UV haze to contend with. Amplifying the signal also means amplifying the distortion along with it. The rest is mostly software guess work since a cpu can't process in parallel it interpolates or best guess. If your camera clips of cuts off too much information or guess work and bakes that into the image file (raw or otherwise) you won't get any further.
It's far from the first time that i've done side by side with 35mm film (Pentax P3N) and pulled out details that the K-1 got wrong both using the same lens.

reh321 · 01-07-2020, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by solitudebound

After seeing what Nikon just offered in the D780. Pentax is looking better than ever.

3500$ (CAD) in hand for a D780 body, that's insane. Sends shivers down my spine as to what they will mess up with the D6.
Pentax could grab a-lot or market share if they would just listen.

The Nikon D780, like the D750 before it, is an "entry level 24mp" camera. B&H has it listed for $2296.99 for body only.

I would think Pentax could come up with their own "entry level 24mp" camera below the K-1ii if they want to, by combining a K-1 body {with 24mp sensor} with KP electronics for $1500 .... but that is a big IF.

repaap · 01-07-2020, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by reh321

The Nikon D780, like the D750 before it, is an "entry level 24mp" camera. B&H has it listed for $2296.99 for body only.

I would think Pentax could come up with their own "entry level 24mp" camera below the K-1ii if they want to, by combining a K-1 body {with 24mp sensor} with KP electronics for $1500 .... but that is a big IF.

There is no reason why 24 MP FF could not be flagship

With 42 MP high resolution one. Especially when there will be also that even more resolution 645 camera(there already is)

01-07-2020, 09:57 AM	#1288
solitudebound Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 140	After seeing what Nikon just offered in the D780. Pentax is looking better than ever. 3500$ (CAD) in hand for a D780 body, that's insane. Sends shivers down my spine as to what they will mess up with the D6. Pentax could grab a-lot or market share if they would just listen. ---------- Post added 01-07-20 at 10:08 AM ---------- Originally posted by Not a Number As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers. The higher band colours have a more narrow wavelength aka Blue up to UV. They travel further but get disrupted much easier and then you have other concerns such as UV haze to contend with. Amplifying the signal also means amplifying the distortion along with it. The rest is mostly software guess work since a cpu can't process in parallel it interpolates or best guess. If your camera clips of cuts off too much information or guess work and bakes that into the image file (raw or otherwise) you won't get any further. It's far from the first time that i've done side by side with 35mm film (Pentax P3N) and pulled out details that the K-1 got wrong both using the same lens. Last edited by solitudebound; 01-07-2020 at 10:11 AM.

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01-07-2020, 05:06 AM - 2 Likes	#1276
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by house With baked in NR you have to buy a new camera to take advantage of software improvements. You also can't choose what algorithms to use depending on scene and output. A camera manufacturer can't provide all the flexibility and experimentation of the worlds software developers in the camera. Phones can load third party apps and are designed for constant updates. Cameras can't do that. Let's keep baking for processing bread and cookies... Now, after quite some usage time of the KP or K1/II, has anyone anywhere any indication or maybe even an example of this magical software progress for the processing of K1 files that could have been visually enhanced in comparison to the same images from the K1II, where this software might have failed? If not, is a constant whining about a hypothetical situation that could also after month of usage of the said camera processing not have been empiricallly presented really a wise thing to do? Just asking.

01-07-2020, 05:13 AM	#1277
WorksAsIntended Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 639	Propably not I guess. But most likely this will change in future when post processing advances (and this is a perfect ai task, so it will advance) there will be differences. You have to ask your self though, if current raw data are still relevant for you in 10 years and if you will use the same camera at this point. For me both will be a clear no. If technology advances significantly I will get a new camera in 5-10 years for sure and I dont start reprocessing old pictures. In fact I at some point I declare a picture as done and do not touch it anymore. At this point I usually also just keep a jpg.

01-07-2020, 06:50 AM	#1278
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by house With baked in NR you have to buy a new camera to take advantage of software improvements. You also can't choose what algorithms to use depending on scene and output. A camera manufacturer can't provide all the flexibility and experimentation of the worlds software developers in the camera. Phones can load third party apps and are designed for constant updates. Cameras can't do that. Sorry, but the above makes no sense whatsoever. Pentax RAWs, as you definitely know, allows one as much processing as he wants; and actually require processing in order to get something usable. From using some defaults, to processing until there's no trace from the original data left; but you have to do something. Using external software. This isn't going to change.

01-07-2020, 07:09 AM - 1 Like	#1279
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,185	Originally posted by biz-engineer IMO, the "accelerator" is called accelerator chip because it's an image pre-processor developped to take some of the sensor data processing off the load of the main image processing engine, so that to extend the technology life time of the old Pentax image processing platform. When Ricoh Imaging would replace the decade old Milbeaut engine to something like what Sony, Canon and Nikon are using, they'll drop the accelerator chip. I guess if the new Pentax K apsc model will have 4K video and UHS-II, chances are it won't have the current accelerator chip used in the KP. but it will still have the processing. When Intel built the 8086 chip, they also built the 8087 and 8089 co-processors, the latter to do floating point operations and the former to do data-processing operations, and many early PC -type computers had a socket to allow the user to add the former. By the time Intel was ready to move forward yet again, they could include the 8087 in it, and the 8089 had proven not to be popular at all. Likewise, ‘accelerator’ code may be included in the processors of future systems. Perhaps Canon and Nikon already do that, but we are the ones who have the controversy, which I am guessing is a result of Pentax’s starting processing midway so we can see a kink in the curves. The one thing I am certain of is that the KP provides better Noise, Dynamic Range, and Color than the famed D500 does. Incidentally, Nikon users value the D750 for these things. Last edited by reh321; 01-07-2020 at 07:27 AM.

01-07-2020, 07:22 AM	#1280
Jean Poitiers Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lost in translation ... Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 18,076	I drove past the local KFC the other day and I chuckled a bit ... that was a great post. Thanks again. And wow ... 86 pages, so I have a lot of reading to catch up on ... No, not really. It's here when it's here. Period.

01-07-2020, 07:37 AM	#1281
Andrzej Makuch Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: KRAKOW Photos: Gallery Posts: 65	Or is it time for the successor k-01? Could use a buster with an adapter K ...

01-07-2020, 07:55 AM	#1282
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,185	Originally posted by Andrzej Makuch Or is it time for the successor k-01? Could use a buster with an adapter K ... Discussion of the K-01 and replacing it probably belongs over in the “Mirrorless” section - they even have a discussion already What does it really take to create a mirrorless camera? - PentaxForums.com

01-07-2020, 08:06 AM	#1283
Andrzej Makuch Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: KRAKOW Photos: Gallery Posts: 65	Thanks! I'm going there already!

01-07-2020, 08:07 AM	#1284
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers.

01-07-2020, 08:13 AM	#1285
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,185	Originally posted by Not a Number As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers. Since we are talking about digital electronics, I would think a correct understanding would be that they use some information which is not contained in the 'raw' file.

01-07-2020, 08:39 AM	#1286
house Pentaxian Join Date: May 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 3,306	Originally posted by Not a Number As far as I could make out from Google translate of an interview (Japanese digital magazine - I think JPT posted the links when the accelorator was released in the K-1 or K-70) of some of Ricoh techs regarding the accelerator is that the accelerator processing is applied and individually tweaked for every ISO setting - the bump is there in the metric being measured. Ricoh has mentioned they are able to get better blues with the chip. It has been noted above the DR seems improved. Ricoh has stated not everything the accelerator is doing can be qualified in numbers. I remember the blue thing. Anyone know what that is about? Is blue a difficult colour for sensors? Anyone noticed an improvement?

01-07-2020, 09:14 AM	#1287
H. Sapiens Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 328	Originally posted by house I remember the blue thing. Anyone know what that is about? Is blue a difficult colour for sensors? Anyone noticed an improvement? I don't know anything about sensors, but in nature and in art blue has in fact a special status - for painters blue was exclusive and expensive, botanists have struggled growing blue tulips and roses etc. So maybe blue IS a difficult colour for the sensor for some reason ...

01-07-2020, 10:08 AM	#1289
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,185	Originally posted by solitudebound After seeing what Nikon just offered in the D780. Pentax is looking better than ever. 3500$ (CAD) in hand for a D780 body, that's insane. Sends shivers down my spine as to what they will mess up with the D6. Pentax could grab a-lot or market share if they would just listen. The Nikon D780, like the D750 before it, is an "entry level 24mp" camera. B&H has it listed for $2296.99 for body only. I would think Pentax could come up with their own "entry level 24mp" camera below the K-1ii if they want to, by combining a K-1 body {with 24mp sensor} with KP electronics for $1500 .... but that is a big IF.

01-07-2020, 10:34 AM	#1290
repaap Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2010 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,242	Originally posted by reh321 The Nikon D780, like the D750 before it, is an "entry level 24mp" camera. B&H has it listed for $2296.99 for body only. I would think Pentax could come up with their own "entry level 24mp" camera below the K-1ii if they want to, by combining a K-1 body {with 24mp sensor} with KP electronics for $1500 .... but that is a big IF. There is no reason why 24 MP FF could not be flagship With 42 MP high resolution one. Especially when there will be also that even more resolution 645 camera(there already is)