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01-06-2020, 07:57 AM   #1216
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QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
Yes, of course you can use jpgs on Pentax, but Pentax always limped after the other brands in jpg quality and this stays true up to the latest modells. The quality is more than sufficient today, but if in labority tests they are worse than others, even by a margin, people loose the feeling of getting the best and choose something different.
This starts with the automatic white balance and ends somewhere in the area of noise reduction.
Again, JPEGS are much better than you say - and you can fine tune them a lot (which "laboratory tests" won't do).

QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
People earning their living shooting photos.

Most of them today make events like weddings or familie shoots. There are of course a huge amount of other areas.
And all of them are shooting f/2.8 zooms and RAW only?
Your posts sound very much like kettle logic, random complaints.

01-06-2020, 08:13 AM - 4 Likes   #1217
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I feel like Pentax is managed in opportunistic ways rather than having a vision.
To quote our former German chancellor Helmut Schmidt: people who have visions should consult the doctor ...
01-06-2020, 08:16 AM   #1218
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I feel like Pentax is managed in opportunistic ways rather than having a vision. They've started the K1 because there was a demand for the body from loyal customers having a collection of vintage Pentax glass, so that Ricoh could capture some cash out of addressing that demand, but it seems they never went all out to satisfy customers who want modern full frame digital body and the modern full frame lenses that go with the body. Same with the K-01, they tried to see if it would produce some cash and then stopped it. Complete lack of long term vision and long term investment. So now Pentax ends up with three camera format, without the capability to renew the lens lineup for each format.
As Pentax showed at the end of Advent, they have a wealth in K-mount lenses; they are adding to that legacy. I view that as a "long-term vision", and some of us actually like what they are doing.
01-06-2020, 08:18 AM   #1219
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In all the personal attack you missjudge something:
I am happy to shoot with my equipment. PENTAX produces good cameras, that is out of question. The point is, to sell those cameras in internet times the need to be the very best at what the market is aimed. Big parts of the market do not buy rational but what ever wins a test for the thought after usecase.
As I said before, the jpgs are well to use, but that is not the point.

I write it over and over: of course you can make pictures with every modern Pentax that are great in almost all cases, these days this stays true for almost all manufacturers of dslrs.

01-06-2020, 08:19 AM   #1220
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QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
Yes, of course you can use jpgs on Pentax, but Pentax always limped after the other brands in jpg quality and this stays true up to the latest modells. The quality is more than sufficient today, but if in labority tests they are worse than others, even by a margin, people loose the feeling of getting the best and choose something different.
Sony has had terrible JPEGs and menus for years and the last time they read the word "ergonomics" was in a dictionary before I was born. Yet they manage to sell well... hmm.

Regarding f/2.8 lenses, they are needed, but for FF we have them already. For APS-C, as I said the 16-60 and 50-135 could use a refresh but hey, the other major brands barely even have them either because they focus on full frame. Canon has a relatively ancient 17-50/2.8, Sony just made a ridiculously expensive ($1300! That's the price of the Pentax 24-70/2.8!) and that's kinda it. Yes, I know that Fuji and Olympus have their options there.

---------- Post added 01-06-20 at 08:24 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They do it because you're wrong.
Pentax is not "a brand for raw photography"; many of us are using JPEGs which are much better than you claim. Even RAW-"only" shooters would occasionally use JPEG.
I have taken to shooting raw+JPEG, but only in the off-chance a friend wants the pictures on the spot, so I can have a chance of it managing to transfer via app . I don't even transfer those to the computer and for the most part ignore them.
01-06-2020, 08:26 AM - 1 Like   #1221
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QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
In all the personal attack you missjudge something:
I am happy to shoot with my equipment. PENTAX produces good cameras, that is out of question. The point is, to sell those cameras in internet times the need to be the very best at what the market is aimed. Big parts of the market do not buy rational but what ever wins a test for the thought after usecase.
As I said before, the jpgs are well to use, but that is not the point.

I write it over and over: of course you can make pictures with every modern Pentax that are great in almost all cases, these days this stays true for almost all manufacturers of dslrs.
The purpose of photography is making photographs. Pentax performs their part - and for the last few years, they sold every flagship "APS-C" camera they had. That is the reason for this thread - looking forward to the next body in that class.
01-06-2020, 08:27 AM   #1222
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Samsung NX-1 was the very best, wasn't it?

This isn't a personal attack; it's just that some ideas presented (like removing the JPEG because it's not "the best" - how about removing the AF as well?) just can't possibly work in this Universe.
And you don't suddenly make a "best there is" feature; you do a best first effort, then spend a lot of effort fine tuning and improving and tweaking and doing it all over again.

As for the market, it will gladly accept less than "best". They're buying Sonys and Canons, after all

01-06-2020, 08:30 AM   #1223
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote

And all of them are shooting f/2.8 zooms and RAW only?
Your posts sound very much like kettle logic, random complaints.
In all honesty: I am starting to get anoyed by you turning my sentences to something I never said.

Not all of them do, of course not. Statistically speaking however those f2.8 lenses are those which are most selled to professionell photographers, at least for both Nikon and Canon, which already is the biggest part of the market. Both Nikon and Canon told this multiple times.

Those are the lenses almost (!) every photo studio owns and are seen on most of weddings and such.

Of course there are other professionalls, of course there are other ways of satisfying the needs.
There is a reason Pentax is at only 3% market share, and the reason is they placed themselves bad on the market at sime point and not some kind of conspiracy. Them loosing designed labority tests over and over is one of them, no matter how far this is off from real world usage. If the jpg quality is 0.0001% worse than the competators, it is ranked behind it in the "best camera of xxxx for yyyy". The actual usage quality of a camera (one of Pentaxs strengths) is a way less important selling factor than winning on versus.com, dpreview, youtube channel xy.
In our time, sythetic benchmarks rule sells when it comes to technology.
The fact that other companies like Sigma and tamron dropped the k mount support is another clear sine, that others being in the same market do not trust the market position to change for the better, at least not by far.
01-06-2020, 08:31 AM   #1224
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Samsung NX-1 was the very best, wasn't it?

This isn't a personal attack; it's just that some ideas presented (like removing the JPEG because it's not "the best" - how about removing the AF as well?) just can't possibly work in this Universe.
And you don't suddenly make a "best there is" feature; you do a best first effort, then spend a lot of effort fine tuning and improving and tweaking and doing it all over again.

As for the market, it will gladly accept less than "best". They're buying Sonys and Canons, after all
I don't believe anyone rational would suggest not producing JPEG images - there are too many of us who use them if at all possible.
01-06-2020, 08:33 AM   #1225
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I have taken to shooting raw+JPEG, but only in the off-chance a friend wants the pictures on the spot, so I can have a chance of it managing to transfer via app . I don't even transfer those to the computer and for the most part ignore them.
You can even shoot only RAW, except those rare occurrences when you have to get something usable out of the camera.

A camera that is unusable until the likes of Adobe care to support its RAW files. That would work well...
01-06-2020, 08:34 AM - 1 Like   #1226
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QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
In all honesty: I am starting to get anoyed by you turning my sentences to something I never said.

Not all of them do, of course not. Statistically speaking however those f2.8 lenses are those which are most selled to professionell photographers, at least for both Nikon and Canon, which already is the biggest part of the market. Both Nikon and Canon told this multiple times.

Those are the lenses almost (!) every photo studio owns and are seen on most of weddings and such.

Of course there are other professionalls, of course there are other ways of satisfying the needs.
There is a reason Pentax is at only 3% market share, and the reason is they placed themselves bad on the market at sime point and not some kind of conspiracy. Them loosing designed labority tests over and over is one of them, no matter how far this is off from real world usage. If the jpg quality is 0.0001% worse than the competators, it is ranked behind it in the "best camera of xxxx for yyyy". The actual usage quality of a camera (one of Pentaxs strengths) is a way less important selling factor than winning on versus.com, dpreview, youtube channel xy.
In our time, sythetic benchmarks rule sells when it comes to technology.
The fact that other companies like Sigma and tamron dropped the k mount support is another clear sine, that others being in the same market do not trust the market position to change for the better, at least not by far.
My reason for switching from Pentax to Canon for twenty years was the Auto Focus provided by the EF mount - then I came back to Pentax because of the bodies. Do not assume why people switch unless you have real information.

added: I notice you mention DPReview - didn't they mention the K-1 as one of the most significant cameras of the 2010's?
01-06-2020, 08:35 AM   #1227
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Samsung NX-1 was the very best, wasn't it?

This isn't a personal attack; it's just that some ideas presented (like removing the JPEG because it's not "the best" - how about removing the AF as well?) just can't possibly work in this Universe.
And you don't suddenly make a "best there is" feature; you do a best first effort, then spend a lot of effort fine tuning and improving and tweaking and doing it all over again.

As for the market, it will gladly accept less than "best". They're buying Sonys and Canons, after all
Samsung is in a whole different market position, they are just too big to be brought down like this.

I am not talking about removing jpgs, but concentrate on what ever Pentax can be better than others. The cameras are a bit of everything, which makes them good alrounders but never in any top rankings.

---------- Post added 01-06-20 at 08:38 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
My reason for switching from Pentax to Canon for twenty years was the Auto Focus provided by the EF mount - then I came back to Pentax because of the bodies. Do not assume why people switch unless you have real information,
It is not about switching. It is about choosing a camera from scratch.

I can tell a hell lot of anecdotal examples, they dont mean any more than your personal reasons.

They key is to find out why market share is this low, and a good indicator of what sells is to look at succesful comparison sources. They dictate part of the market and are in this position because they found out, what people care for.
No matter how "wrong" the reasons are.
01-06-2020, 08:41 AM - 3 Likes   #1228
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I don't believe anyone rational would suggest not producing JPEG images - there are too many of us who use them if at all possible.
Imagine how useful it would be if so-called experts at camera review sites actually offered an overview or tutorial on adjusting JPEG settings.
01-06-2020, 08:41 AM   #1229
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote

added: I notice you mention DPReview - didn't they mention the K-1 as one of the most significant cameras of the 2010's?
They did, but at release they did not show much interest, that would have been way more important although this of course does help Pentax now.
01-06-2020, 08:43 AM   #1230
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QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
Samsung is in a whole different market position, they are just too big to be brought down like this.

I am not talking about removing jpgs, but concentrate on what ever Pentax can be better than others. The cameras are a bit of everything, which makes them good alrounders but never in any top rankings.
If you are going to look at corporate size, you have to think "Ricoh", not "Pentax". I am told that the GR3 is a big success in Europe.

You say "concentrate on what ever Pentax can be better than others" after talking about f/2.8 lenses almost exclusively. I have a news flash for you: Pentax's strength is not in making modern lenses. Pentax's strength is the 'accelerator", which you will find out if you ever get a modern Pentax system.
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