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12-27-2019, 11:11 AM   #631
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
From what I have read. L-mount is probably an option. Panasonic and Leica (obviously) were going to develop for the L-mount regardless of what other companies decided to do. Sigma was invited as was Olympus. Were other companies invited? I don't know. Ricoh seems like a prime candidate for the partnership. Panasonic doesn't appear to be interested in developing on-sensor PDAF and they are going for the large body. Sigma will use a Foveon sensor. There will be a market for a manufacturer who can make compact FF bodies using PDAF sensors and there will be a market for compact glass. Everything from Sigma and Panasonic is huge and expensive... Leica obviously so. Panasonic is struggling so I don't see them adding more L-mount bodies in the near future. I think the 3 that they currently have will be improved via firmware updates over the next 2-3 years before we see new bodies as Panasonic will focus on glass. A GH-5 & G9 replacement should come late next year.


I really wish Olympus had decided to join the L-mount. FF mirrorless is where the growth is and has been for the last few years.


Ricoh has to eventually do something. This is not an industry where you can rest on your laurels. Look at what has happened to Canon and Nikon in just a few short years. They are playing catch-up in the market. Obviously Canon and Nikon are huge companies and they still command a massive share of the industry, but they have fallen behind in several key areas.


Leica is the only one who could keep someone from joining the L-mount as the L-mount is theirs and they would have to grant a license, but other than a license from Leica I don't believe there is any restriction. There are anti-trust laws against cartels and the L-mount alliance would find themselves in trouble if they were working together to restrict competition.
So, Panasonic and Leica, old collaborators, decided to extend their collaboration with this L "alliance". Then, they needed someone to make lots of lenses for them (but not overly competent in cameras) - enter Sigma. Supposedly Olympus had a role, too.
Yet I don't see a good place for Ricoh Imaging. It's the same Ricoh Imaging who is barely releasing products, behind in AF and video; would they beat Panasonic in AF? Would they launch more cameras like Panasonic?
IMO they'd be outcompeted within the system. Can it work? At the very least, I believe it would be very, very difficult.

Are there anti-trust laws forcing a company to share their intellectual property with everyone?

12-27-2019, 01:10 PM   #632
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
So, Panasonic and Leica, old collaborators, decided to extend their collaboration with this L "alliance". Then, they needed someone to make lots of lenses for them (but not overly competent in cameras) - enter Sigma. Supposedly Olympus had a role, too.
Yet I don't see a good place for Ricoh Imaging. It's the same Ricoh Imaging who is barely releasing products, behind in AF and video; would they beat Panasonic in AF? Would they launch more cameras like Panasonic?
IMO they'd be outcompeted within the system. Can it work? At the very least, I believe it would be very, very difficult.

Are there anti-trust laws forcing a company to share their intellectual property with everyone?

There is no intellectual property being shared between the members of the alliance. Just a license from Leica to use the L-mount and the intellectual property that goes with that. It's the same with m4/3. You don't get 100% compatibility with all products released by Olympus and Panasonic. Things like IBIS and AF still work better when using Panasonic glass on Panasonic bodies and Olympus glass on Olympus bodies. Panasonic lenses are optimized for CDAF and Olympus lenses are optimized for PDAF and to get the best IBIS from Olympus you have to use Olympus glass. They don't share technology. Only a mount and the communication protocols of that mount. They can't even produce a joint lens roadmap without being in violation of anti-trust laws. They can develop some technologies (not products) together for the L-mount, but they don't have to share anything they develop individually.


Would Leica license the L-mount to Ricoh? I don't know. Given the state of the market, I think they would as they need as many members as they can get to compete with Canon, Nikon, and Sony. Individually Panasonic, Leica, & Sigma make up very small percentages of the market. Combine them with a common mount and they become more of a force. Ricoh has some dedicated users and the Pentax brand still has value. I think Ricoh needs to be part of a partnership in the current market.
12-27-2019, 01:11 PM   #633
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It's frustrating in a way that cameras don't have standardized mounts and protocols. I guess the Chinese could break that boundary. Turning cameras into true commodity items. Until then I don't believe Pentax will join the L mount.
12-27-2019, 01:29 PM   #634
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There is no intellectual property being shared between the members of the alliance. Just a license from Leica to use the L-mount and the intellectual property that goes with that.
Whatever. Is there any law forcing you to license your technology to everyone?

12-27-2019, 01:35 PM   #635
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Do the Japanese even have *and* enforce anti-trust laws?
12-27-2019, 01:49 PM   #636
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
We don't know yet what features the K-new will have - and certainly we have no clue on the performance.
Pentax doesn't yet have any cameras that get close to the D500 in terms of focus or frame rate, although that will hopefully change in half a year
This. It doesn't really matter if the K-New has IBIS, better image quality, better high-ISO, astrotracer, etc. One can get all those things with the KP already, at a much lower price. IMO, the only way Pentax is going to get much traction is to bring out something that has significant focusing and frame rate improvements, along with preserving most of that other stuff. Otherwise it would seem to me pretty hard to justify a premium priced APSC camera.
12-27-2019, 02:34 PM - 1 Like   #637
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QuoteOriginally posted by SteveinSLC Quote
This. It doesn't really matter if the K-New has IBIS, better image quality, better high-ISO, astrotracer, etc. One can get all those things with the KP already, at a much lower price. IMO, the only way Pentax is going to get much traction is to bring out something that has significant focusing and frame rate improvements, along with preserving most of that other stuff. Otherwise it would seem to me pretty hard to justify a premium priced APSC camera.
I doubt a superfast shooting camera is what a Pentax is supposed to be. They never went this route and also lack the ecosystem, lenses etc. for this kind of shooting. Are there really users who waited for Ricoh to come out with such a Pentax DSLR? Why did they not simply buy a Nikon or any available systems specialised on that already?
12-27-2019, 02:46 PM   #638
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OK, some argue that the L alliance is not suitable for a future Ricoh / Pentax ML. But then what would be the solution? A new mount? Ricoh is barely able to develop a lens for the old K-mount DSLRs. They can't go many years ahead only with DSLRs, it's like everyone went digital but they would still go on analog photo film.

12-27-2019, 02:59 PM   #639
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QuoteOriginally posted by edri Quote
OK, some argue that the L alliance is not suitable for a future Ricoh / Pentax ML. But then what would be the solution? A new mount? Ricoh is barely able to develop a lens for the old K-mount DSLRs. They can't go many years ahead only with DSLRs, it's like everyone went digital but they would still go on analog photo film.
DSLRs and MILCs are not two wildly different technologies; comparing them with digital vs film is nonsensical at best.
12-27-2019, 03:03 PM - 3 Likes   #640
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Ricoh Imaging will make Pentax DSLRs and SLR lenses as long as there are people to buy them.

Then they will go back to being Ricoh and Ricoh only.
12-27-2019, 03:04 PM   #641
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Yes, it is, the acceptance and integration of new technologies with new features vs the clamping of something old.

---------- Post added 12-28-19 at 12:05 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Ricoh Imaging will make Pentax DSLRs and SLR lenses as long as there are people to buy them.

Then they will go back to being Ricoh and Ricoh only.
With what? Theta and GR?

---------- Post added 12-28-19 at 12:08 AM ----------

It won't bother me if the new ML will only be called Ricoh, but it will be based on the Pentax DSLR core and a fully compatible adapter with the K-mount lenses will be available .

---------- Post added 12-28-19 at 12:10 AM ----------

The existence of a Ricoh ML does not mean the death of Pentax DSLRs.
12-27-2019, 03:14 PM   #642
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Ricoh Imaging will make Pentax DSLRs and SLR lenses as long as there are people to buy them.

Then they will go back to being Ricoh and Ricoh only.
I agree 100% with that
12-27-2019, 05:28 PM - 1 Like   #643
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
I doubt a superfast shooting camera is what a Pentax is supposed to be. They never went this route and also lack the ecosystem, lenses etc. for this kind of shooting. Are there really users who waited for Ricoh to come out with such a Pentax DSLR? Why did they not simply buy a Nikon or any available systems specialised on that already?
Well, I agree about the ecosystem/lenses part. But what else would drive a high $1500+ price for a new APSC body? Video? Pentax plays in that game even less than high-speed.
People aren't going to pay that much more for a larger, tougher body with dual card slots when most of the other capability is available in a KP(plus a tilting screen, which the new one apparently doesn't have). The only big game changer would be some dual optical/electronic viewfinder.
12-28-2019, 05:20 AM - 1 Like   #644
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
I doubt a superfast shooting camera is what a Pentax is supposed to be. They never went this route and also lack the ecosystem, lenses etc. for this kind of shooting. Are there really users who waited for Ricoh to come out with such a Pentax DSLR? Why did they not simply buy a Nikon or any available systems specialised on that already?
When you start to buy into a system you don't always know exactly what you want to do with it. In my case I wanted a good camera for taking pictures of the kids, I did some research and ended up with a K-30. Over the last seven or eight years I've slowly built up a collection of lenses. And my boys went from 3 and 4 years old to 11 and almost 13, and both are playing soccer all the time. I evolved from a complete novice taking family snapshots to someone who really likes to take pictures of soccer games. I don't have a huge budget for adding or switching systems and buying a bunch of new lenses, and I like a lot of Pentax' unique advantages. But I'd really like to bump up my keeper rate shooting sports.

So, yea, I'm a Pentaxian who'd very much like the K-new to have Nikon-like (or maybe Nikon-lite) tracking autofocus and frame rates.
12-28-2019, 05:23 AM   #645
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QuoteOriginally posted by SteveinSLC Quote
Well, I agree about the ecosystem/lenses part. But what else would drive a high $1500+ price for a new APSC body? Video? Pentax plays in that game even less than high-speed.
People aren't going to pay that much more for a larger, tougher body with dual card slots when most of the other capability is available in a KP(plus a tilting screen, which the new one apparently doesn't have). The only big game changer would be some dual optical/electronic viewfinder.
Or really much better focusing accuracy and consistency in keeping target in focus. Better FPS, buffer, DR and good enough video. That is actually quite a bit already..
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