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12-12-2019, 02:30 PM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The main thing is that all APS-C fans will buy the K-new.

Ricoh needs encouragement.

Personally, I hope a respective FF update will follow soon.
And provide more encouragement by purchasing new Pentax lenses

12-12-2019, 03:15 PM - 2 Likes   #167
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And how do you know whether a decision has been, or has been not taken at that point?
What makes you think that "researching" merely means thinking about if to make it at all or not? (...)
If 'that point' means end of February 2017, because of the time span, in addition to the language used: had the decision to design a new flagship APS-C camera been taken by then, the K-new would have a name now and be on the shelves. Or do you imagine that it takes Ricoh Imaging three years or more to develop a camera once the decision to make it has been taken?

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
(...)
It doesn't make any sense; what, do you think they could've said, one year later "we researched and the answer is no, we won't do it"?
(...)
If, one year later, still no decision had been taken as whether or not to make a new flagship APS-C camera or if the decision had been negative at that point, they could have used the kind of language they used this year for the Q and 645 series:

Q series, adapted: 'We are aware that there are a great many Pentax K-3 II users, however we are now focusing on (i) full format and (ii) compact and light-weight APS-C cameras and we would like to formulate our policy with regard to the K-3 series based on considering what we should do next and what would be most satisfying to our customers.'

645 series, adapted: 'we are carefully studying the current market situation and customers’ needs to reflect on the development of the K-3 series.'
12-12-2019, 04:40 PM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And how do you know whether a decision has been, or has been not taken at that point?
What makes you think that "researching" merely means thinking about if to make it at all or not? It doesn't make any sense; what, do you think they could've said, one year later "we researched and the answer is no, we won't do it"?
No way, the decision was already made; but likely, the details - exactly what kind of camera they'd be making - were subject to "research".

The KP doesn't replace the K-3 II more than Nikon's 7xxx series replaced the D300s.
Yes they could. It happens all the time in industry... there's a reason why no product, project, upgrade, what have you, ever gets done without several tomes of documentation detailing viability (technical, economical and financial), pre-project, cost estimate, expected ROI, etc. etc. etc.

They have two teams for cameras. The only cameras that came out since the KP are the K-1ii (relatively minor update) and GRiii, at regular intervals of a year. It's conceivable that both were worked on by a single team. And, most importantly: it is unbelievable that one team was either sitting on their hands for a year and a half or that it took three years to develop the K-new. The only reasonable explanation is that they did not know exactly WHAT to do.


Really, it's very logical. It is, in fact, the only logical explanation as to why Ricoh has been so slow in bringing out cameras. With two teams and an -expected- development team of 14-18 months for a DSLR, the numbers don't really work.
12-12-2019, 04:55 PM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Yes they could. It happens all the time in industry... there's a reason why no product, project, upgrade, what have you, ever gets done without several tomes of documentation detailing viability (technical, economical and financial), pre-project, cost estimate, expected ROI, etc. etc. etc.

They have two teams for cameras. The only cameras that came out since the KP are the K-1ii (relatively minor update) and GRiii, at regular intervals of a year. It's conceivable that both were worked on by a single team. And, most importantly: it is unbelievable that one team was either sitting on their hands for a year and a half or that it took three years to develop the K-new. The only reasonable explanation is that they did not know exactly WHAT to do.

Really, it's very logical. It is, in fact, the only logical explanation as to why Ricoh has been so slow in bringing out cameras. With two teams and an -expected- development team of 14-18 months for a DSLR, the numbers don't really work.
At the time the GRRRRR came out last year, I thought that all hands had worked on it at one time, thereby slowing down the next DSLR. I am not sure what they are claiming, but nothing has happened since then to change my mind.

12-13-2019, 12:57 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
If 'that point' means end of February 2017, because of the time span, in addition to the language used: had the decision to design a new flagship APS-C camera been taken by then, the K-new would have a name now and be on the shelves. Or do you imagine that it takes Ricoh Imaging three years or more to develop a camera once the decision to make it has been taken?
Actually developing a camera can easily take 3 years or more. Remember Samsung stating how it took 3 years for the NX-1?
What, you actually believed that Sales Manager's claim about short development times?

Last edited by Kunzite; 12-13-2019 at 01:03 AM.
12-13-2019, 01:41 AM - 1 Like   #171
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Do you remember the time interval between K10D and K20D, K20D and K-7, K-7 and K-5? 16 months.

And, at that time, 12 months between entry-level models (K-m, K-x, K-r).
12-13-2019, 02:26 AM - 1 Like   #172
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What Mistral said, basically. From K-5 to K-3 there was a longer delay but that was because of the entire kerfuffle with Ricoh's acquisition of Pentax, I assume.

Why would the second in charge for Ricoh Imaging in Europe lie, *particularly* with easily disprovable facts?
The NX-1 is not even comparable. First BSI sensor in APS-C size? First >24MP APS-C sensor? First >10fps APS-C camera? With 4K uncompressed video? If you released basically the same camera today, four years later, with an OVF, it would still be among the best cameras, full stop. I want to believe that such "future-proofing" is the motive behind the K-new's slow dev cycle, but we'll see.

And again, the interview you posted agrees with what we are saying: "We are *beginning* development of a new APS-C camera to replace the K-3ii", more than a year after the release of the KP shows that they were not even sure about *what* to do.
12-13-2019, 02:53 AM   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Do you remember the time interval between K10D and K20D, K20D and K-7, K-7 and K-5? 16 months.

And, at that time, 12 months between entry-level models (K-m, K-x, K-r).
Parallel development.

12-13-2019, 03:15 AM - 2 Likes   #174
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With a completely different sensor (K10D -> K20D and K-7 -> K-5)? Two teams working in parallel, each of them adapting the developments made by the other one to its own platform? Costly, hard to manage and not particularly time-efficient. Yet the time interval was exactly the same between K10D and K20D (different sensor), K20D and K-7 (+/- same sensor) and K-7 and K-5 (new sensor).

if I were you, I would have just answered 'Pure speculation on your part.' and/or 'Ricoh Imaging Europe's General Sales Manager trumps some forum member. End of story.'
12-13-2019, 04:39 AM - 1 Like   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
What Mistral said, basically. From K-5 to K-3 there was a longer delay but that was because of the entire kerfuffle with Ricoh's acquisition of Pentax, I assume.

Why would the second in charge for Ricoh Imaging in Europe lie, *particularly* with easily disprovable facts?
The NX-1 is not even comparable. First BSI sensor in APS-C size? First >24MP APS-C sensor? First >10fps APS-C camera? With 4K uncompressed video? If you released basically the same camera today, four years later, with an OVF, it would still be among the best cameras, full stop. I want to believe that such "future-proofing" is the motive behind the K-new's slow dev cycle, but we'll see.

And again, the interview you posted agrees with what we are saying: "We are *beginning* development of a new APS-C camera to replace the K-3ii", more than a year after the release of the KP shows that they were not even sure about *what* to do.
I am not sure it does really matter.
How much time did Ricoh execs need to figure out KP was not exactly perceived by customers as they hoped for is not very important. At the end it costed them some people churning in the meantime to get a D500 or comparable. Good news in that an under steroids Knew is around the corner with new developments being embedded in additional bodies soon.
12-13-2019, 05:55 AM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
With a completely different sensor (K10D -> K20D and K-7 -> K-5)? Two teams working in parallel, each of them adapting the developments made by the other one to its own platform? Costly, hard to manage and not particularly time-efficient. Yet the time interval was exactly the same between K10D and K20D (different sensor), K20D and K-7 (+/- same sensor) and K-7 and K-5 (new sensor).

if I were you, I would have just answered 'Pure speculation on your part.' and/or 'Ricoh Imaging Europe's General Sales Manager trumps some forum member. End of story.'
The 3 years development time is not "pure speculation" but a statement of some highly ranked Samsung official. To give an exact quote:
"About three years ago we started planing the NX1, with the target of making the world’s best mirrorless camera, to compete with DSLRs"
CES 2015 Samsung Interview: Mirrorless to outsell DSLRs 'in three years': Digital Photography Review

Pipelining and parallelism are well known and wildly used techniques to improve throughput. It's weird to see anyone call them "hard to manage and not particularly time-efficient" - but of course, they contradict your sequential development theory. Say, what did the mechanical design team do while the camera was waiting for the finishing touches on the firmware?
Ricoh Imaging has limited resources, likely more so than Pentax Imaging Business had; but this doesn't mean they're unable to work on more than one project at a time.

And why wasn't the K-1 ready faster?
12-13-2019, 06:01 AM   #177
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Do you remember the time interval between K10D and K20D, K20D and K-7, K-7 and K-5? 16 months.
Very interesting.

As you already indicated (change of sensors), within that interval they didn't just produce updates/facelifts.
Some of these intervals required to fit in sculpting an entirely new body, major changes to the underlying electronics, changing not only sensor manufacturer but also sensor types.

Apparently there was a bit longer interval between K-5 and K-5 II, with the latter seeing the release of entirely new AF optics and a gapless back LCD design.
FWIW, I'm very fond of the K-5 II. To me, it represents a highlight in the APS-C line.
12-13-2019, 06:03 AM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And why wasn't the K-1 ready faster?
Are you suggesting it was late to the market?

I'm glad it arrived!!!
12-13-2019, 06:32 AM - 1 Like   #179
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The 3 years development time is not "pure speculation" but a statement of some highly ranked Samsung official. To give an exact quote:
"About three years ago we started planing the NX1, with the target of making the world’s best mirrorless camera, to compete with DSLRs"
CES 2015 Samsung Interview: Mirrorless to outsell DSLRs 'in three years': Digital Photography Review

Pipelining and parallelism are well known and wildly used techniques to improve throughput. It's weird to see anyone call them "hard to manage and not particularly time-efficient" - but of course, they contradict your sequential development theory. Say, what did the mechanical design team do while the camera was waiting for the finishing touches on the firmware?
Ricoh Imaging has limited resources, likely more so than Pentax Imaging Business had; but this doesn't mean they're unable to work on more than one project at a time.

And why wasn't the K-1 ready faster?
Mistral is talking about sequential development of flagships. The parallel development was with the entry level bodies. What are the mechanical engineers doing? Working on the different body that uses the same software and sensor.

When did they start development of the K-1?

Again, quoting your source (which you keep ignoring): "We are now starting to develop a new DSL to succeed the K-3ii". What, the mechanical engineers spent 3 years doing nothing while the only cameras released were... K-70, K-1, KP? And after one a half years from then, there's only a prototype.

Things get delayed, priorities change. Ricoh wanted the K-1 to be the new flagship, it didn't pan out as they hoped, so after knowing that they started to work on the K-New.


Since this is the forum equivalent of banging heads with a titanium-covered, kevlar-reinforced, prestressed concrete wall, I'm bowing out.
12-13-2019, 06:48 AM - 2 Likes   #180
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Do you remember the time interval between K10D and K20D, K20D and K-7, K-7 and K-5? 16 months.

And, at that time, 12 months between entry-level models (K-m, K-x, K-r).
In other words, very little has changed. Pentax used to come out with around one or two serious cameras a year then, and that's what Ricoh does now.

However, at that time they were making just two lines.
- Low end APS-C
- Mid/high end APS-C

Now they have expanded to a number of new lines
- Low end APS-C (K-70)
- Mid range APS-C (KP)
- High end APS-C (K-whatever)
- Full Frame K
- 645 digital
- GR

I think people are far too hung up on the idea that a camera must be a "successor" to something. I haven't got that impression from the Ricoh staff I have heard speaking. They seem to create each camera as it's own unique thing with a particular user in mind. They don't have the mentality of, "If it's 2020, it must be time for an A7 mark 4". Personally, I'm glad of that.

In 2019 would a close successor to the K-3 be successful? I don't think so. The K-3 II was a dud really and I think they are wise to rethink it. The market has changed. Users are more interested in small/classic cameras, hence the KP. Or otherwise fps/video monsters that could never be achieved at the cost of the old K-7/K-5/K-5 lineage. The K-3 II was uncomfortably in the middle, not really satisfying either group of users.

I believe all of the above lines are likely to see some kind of continuation, it's just they will have to wait their turn. In the meantime the fact is we have more choice of serious camera bodies from Ricoh/Pentax than we have had for years.

As for how long it is taking to make the new APS-C camera, we will have to wait and see what is in it. I don't think is going to be a typical update. It's the first truly top-end APS-C camera Pentax or Ricoh has made. It's also the first all new camera designed to live in a mirrorless dominated era, and a camera whose technology is going to power a number of other lines in future. It's not an easy task.
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