Good news ... K-1 is one of 20 most important cameras of the decade - DPReview

Jonathan Mac · 12-13-2019, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by dcpropilot

After reading the DPR narrative, I am happy to say that it was very good. "Pentax is one of those brands that its fans just love - passionately and loyally. Now owned by Ricoh, Pentax has had a rocky few years but it's still hanging in there, thanks in no small part to a small army of repeat customers that can't imagine ever buying from another brand."

Is this true?

I don't think so. Many users here use other camera brands too. I use Fujifilm and if're talking film then that list gets a lot longer.

Originally posted by H. Sapiens

I haven't read the article, just looked at the collection of cameras ... but surely, we can agree that the most important cameras of the past 10 years have been in smartphones, drones and action cams the likes of Go Pro. Fuji for making cameras a stylish accessory. (I'll leave out surveillance cams and stuff like that)

Those cams have actually changed the field of photography.

I am not saying DSLR's doesn't belong on a list, but this is a friendly nod to each of the major camera companies and their fans.

Actually the list only contains three DSLRs. All the others are mirrorless (yes, phones and compacts are mirrorless cameras too).

As for drones, smartphones etc, to declare them the most important would be to disregard all the massive improvements in large-sensored cameras during that time period.

Kunzite · 12-13-2019, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by c.a.m

"...thanks in no small part to a small army of repeat customers that can't imagine ever buying from another brand." To me, it seems that the writer is suggesting that the Pentax products are not really worthy of purchase; it's just the diehard users who keep the business alive regardless of the quality. I don't think 'Pentaxians' are blindly loyal as the writer might be implying.

- Craig

It's a good defense though: if we are blind loyalists, they're automatically right in any false claim they're making and we're challenging.

ecostigny · 12-13-2019, 06:15 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

It's a good defense though: if we are blind loyalists, they're automatically right in any false claim they're making and we're challenging.

One can claim that one can't ever lose an argument with an irrational person because they won't listen to reason.

Class A · 12-13-2019, 07:00 AM - **5 Likes**

Originally posted by fsge

I thought DPR hated Pentax, did they recently change their editorial line ?

I don't see how they changed their position in any significant way.

Yes, it is very nice that they gave the K-1 a nod, but the description contains as much marginalisation as one can reasonably put into so few lines:

"Pentax is one of those brands that its fans just love - passionately and loyally. "
Perhaps it is just me, but I don't think "loyally" is a compliment.

This suggests that customers stick to the brand, no matter what. It allows the implication that the brand doesn't really produce products worth buying but that the Pentax fanboys do so nevertheless.

If they had written something like "...that its fans just love - passionately and loyally -- since it serves their needs in ways no other brand can.", it would have been a lot more complimentary to the brand. As is, it essentially states: "The strength of Pentax lies not in the products but in the fanbase."

"Now owned by Ricoh, Pentax has had a rocky few years but it's still hanging in there, thanks in no small part to a small army of repeat customers that can't imagine ever buying from another brand."
The "army" reference is a stab at the supposed "militant" nature of Pentaxians.
Have you ever seen them write about an "army of Sony fans"?

The last bit about "repeat customers that can't imagine..." clearly allows the interpretation that Pentaxians just lack the imagination or are too stubborn to ever consider buying products from another brand.
Again, what is missing here is the part where it is made clear that most Pentaxians don't consider buying from other brands because they are not keen on spending double the money, using EVFs, not having IBIS, etc.

In my view, this has been carefully written to allow non-Pentaxians to interpret the article as essentially throwing shade on Pentaxians -- "They just don't know any better, how cute."
It's been a long-standing tradition by DPReview to always qualify recommendations as "Good for existing Pentaxians, but not enough for anyone to change to the brand".

Note that they didn't mention the K-1 II. If they were really that convinced about the K-1, they could have mentioned that it is still available in an updated form. They must feel very confident in their assessment that the K-1 II cannot be recommended due to the "accelerator" unit. I find that confidence unwarranted as they arrived at their conclusions based on botched up images and never changed it, even when the updated images did not support their claims anymore.

With "The K-1 was the first full-frame Pentax DSLR, but it isn't in this list because it had a significant impact on the wider photography market (although in some respects it was very competitive, especially for landscape shooters)." they cement the point that the K-1 is no longer relevant (they excluded it from their "landscape" category recommendation) and that the K-1 has no relevance outside a niche Pentax-fanboy space.

I admit, on face value, my perspective could be regarded as "reading too much into some phrasing", but given the history (a series of injustices against Pentax that always had to be corrected by readers) and their tradition of using loaded language, I'm not apologising for not giving them enough credit. They only mention Pentax when it does not hurt their MILC-pushing agenda and never without a slight against Pentax users as subtle as they sometimes manage to employ it.

P.S.: As others mentioned already, the 645Z should have been mentioned as a record-breaker (along with a juicy "withholding the result for years"-story) and the 645D as a price-breaker. If DPReview really cared about Pentax, they would have least recognised the 645Z, given that it is still being sold.

Last edited by Class A; 12-13-2019 at 09:28 AM.

Kunzite · 12-13-2019, 07:23 AM - **1 Like**

Right... while saying that we are loyal can be constructed in a positive manner, they're basically calling us closed minded.

danielblues · 12-13-2019, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by Class A

it does not hurt their MILC-pushing agenda

We can't forget that, they do have an agenda, it's a very different site to the one a initial registered to back in 2001. Bashing is popular and Pentax is unfortunately the main target of many sites and channels.

**Serkevan** · 12-13-2019, 07:48 AM - **1 Like**

They are basically calling us fanboys (and girls); but that's not new.
Well, I like the pictures, the price-quality ratio and just how comfortable the cameras are.

Class A · 12-13-2019, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by danielblues

We can't forget that, they do have an agenda, it's a very different site to the one a initial registered to back in 2001.

Yes, wasn't owned by Amazon back then and was run by very different people.
Not that the old DPReview was flawless, but it didn't seem to be this shilling machine it is today.

Originally posted by danielblues

Bashing is popular and Pentax is unfortunately the main target of many sites and channels.

Imaging Resource was notable for appreciating Pentax cameras for what they are. Sadly, they are said to close at the end of 2019.

Class A · 12-13-2019, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Serkevan

Well, I like the pictures, the price-quality ratio and just how comfortable the cameras are.

Yeah, yeah, but how can you possibly manage without eye-AF and 10 fps?

Plus, what's wrong with you not requiring 8K video at 120fps???

**Serkevan** · 12-13-2019, 08:48 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Class A

Yeah, yeah, but how can you possibly manage without eye-AF and 10 fps?

Plus, what's wrong with you not requiring 8K video at 120fps???

I don't, but that's because I'm a terrible 'tog

Having eye-AF and 10 fps would only make my hard drive cry without any gain in picture quality, hah.

Jokes aside, I don't think I've ever put the K-1 in burst mode. Not needed for what I shoot. I can trigger fast enough myself (around 1 fps) when I'm shooting a series of portraits in AF-S with constant refocus/recomposing, and I almost always get a couple that are good enough from the "burst".

Class A · 12-13-2019, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by ecostigny

I think the discrepancy is due to their preferences for cameras that do it all (stills, video, tax returns, etc.) vs. cameras optimized for a relatively small set of given tasks.

They recently discovered the idea that certain cameras only need to be good for their intended (possibly niche) application area.

As usual, they are too slow on the uptake to benefit Pentax (e.g., they had trouble understanding the merit of IBIS and Pixel Shift when Pentax was leading with those features).

Class A · 12-13-2019, 09:26 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Serkevan

I don't, but that's because I'm a terrible 'tog

In addition to being a loyal fanboy soldier of the Pentaxian army!

Originally posted by Serkevan

Jokes aside, I don't think I've ever put the K-1 in burst mode.

Same here.

I just don't need it for my photography.
DPReview: Sue me!

H. Sapiens · 12-13-2019, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Mac

I don't think so. Many users here use other camera brands too. I use Fujifilm and if're talking film then that list gets a lot longer.

Actually the list only contains three DSLRs. All the others are mirrorless (yes, phones and compacts are mirrorless cameras too).

As for drones, smartphones etc, to declare them the most important would be to disregard all the massive improvements in large-sensored cameras during that time period.

You seem to have missed my point. I tried to flip the discussion for just a second. From a technology and enthusiast perspective, you are partly right. We have more mega pixels now. Invention of the mirror less cameras are definitely a technological achievement. For some, looking at an EVF with its information overlays is perhaps a necessity. For me OVF and EVF each have both pros and cons.

From the perspective of photography as an artform and as a visual tool for capturing and documenting our world, these changes make little difference. We are talking marginal gains, not game changers. My next camera will likely be a drone. That will change the stories I can tell. A K new with faster AF and better ISO handling will be nice, but honestly, if that is all there is to it, Pentax don't have to hurry if you ask me - I can easily wait.

Kunzite · 12-13-2019, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Class A

Yes, wasn't owned by Amazon back then and was run by very different people.
Not that the old DPReview was flawless, but it didn't seem to be this shilling machine it is today.

The same old DPReview who invented ratings just (hint, hint) for Pentax?
The same old DPReview owned by "if you're not quiet I'll push the Pentax back in the review queue" Phil Askey?

Class A · 12-13-2019, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

The same old DPReview who invented ratings just (hint, hint) for Pentax?

Don't know about that. What was the story regarding Pentax-specific ratings?

Originally posted by Kunzite

The same old DPReview owned by "if you're not quiet I'll push the Pentax back in the review queue" Phil Askey?

Didn't know about that either.

Even if he had a problem with Pentax (more so than with other brands?), was he shilling as much as the new team do?

The bigger the DPReview team got, the worse the content got (roughly).

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12-13-2019, 05:49 AM	#76
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,897	Originally posted by dcpropilot After reading the DPR narrative, I am happy to say that it was very good. "Pentax is one of those brands that its fans just love - passionately and loyally. Now owned by Ricoh, Pentax has had a rocky few years but it's still hanging in there, thanks in no small part to a small army of repeat customers that can't imagine ever buying from another brand." Is this true? I don't think so. Many users here use other camera brands too. I use Fujifilm and if're talking film then that list gets a lot longer. Originally posted by H. Sapiens I haven't read the article, just looked at the collection of cameras ... but surely, we can agree that the most important cameras of the past 10 years have been in smartphones, drones and action cams the likes of Go Pro. Fuji for making cameras a stylish accessory. (I'll leave out surveillance cams and stuff like that) Those cams have actually changed the field of photography. I am not saying DSLR's doesn't belong on a list, but this is a friendly nod to each of the major camera companies and their fans. Actually the list only contains three DSLRs. All the others are mirrorless (yes, phones and compacts are mirrorless cameras too). As for drones, smartphones etc, to declare them the most important would be to disregard all the massive improvements in large-sensored cameras during that time period.

12-13-2019, 05:57 AM	#77
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by c.a.m "...thanks in no small part to a small army of repeat customers that can't imagine ever buying from another brand." To me, it seems that the writer is suggesting that the Pentax products are not really worthy of purchase; it's just the diehard users who keep the business alive regardless of the quality. I don't think 'Pentaxians' are blindly loyal as the writer might be implying. - Craig It's a good defense though: if we are blind loyalists, they're automatically right in any false claim they're making and we're challenging.

12-13-2019, 06:15 AM	#78
ecostigny Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Branford, CT Posts: 561	Originally posted by Kunzite It's a good defense though: if we are blind loyalists, they're automatically right in any false claim they're making and we're challenging. One can claim that one can't ever lose an argument with an irrational person because they won't listen to reason.

12-13-2019, 07:00 AM - 5 Likes	#79
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by fsge I thought DPR hated Pentax, did they recently change their editorial line ? I don't see how they changed their position in any significant way. Yes, it is very nice that they gave the K-1 a nod, but the description contains as much marginalisation as one can reasonably put into so few lines: "Pentax is one of those brands that its fans just love - passionately and loyally. " Perhaps it is just me, but I don't think "loyally" is a compliment. This suggests that customers stick to the brand, no matter what. It allows the implication that the brand doesn't really produce products worth buying but that the Pentax fanboys do so nevertheless. If they had written something like "...that its fans just love - passionately and loyally -- since it serves their needs in ways no other brand can.", it would have been a lot more complimentary to the brand. As is, it essentially states: "The strength of Pentax lies not in the products but in the fanbase." "Now owned by Ricoh, Pentax has had a rocky few years but it's still hanging in there, thanks in no small part to a small army of repeat customers that can't imagine ever buying from another brand." The "army" reference is a stab at the supposed "militant" nature of Pentaxians. Have you ever seen them write about an "army of Sony fans"? The last bit about "repeat customers that can't imagine..." clearly allows the interpretation that Pentaxians just lack the imagination or are too stubborn to ever consider buying products from another brand. Again, what is missing here is the part where it is made clear that most Pentaxians don't consider buying from other brands because they are not keen on spending double the money, using EVFs, not having IBIS, etc. In my view, this has been carefully written to allow non-Pentaxians to interpret the article as essentially throwing shade on Pentaxians -- "They just don't know any better, how cute." It's been a long-standing tradition by DPReview to always qualify recommendations as "Good for existing Pentaxians, but not enough for anyone to change to the brand". Note that they didn't mention the K-1 II. If they were really that convinced about the K-1, they could have mentioned that it is still available in an updated form. They must feel very confident in their assessment that the K-1 II cannot be recommended due to the "accelerator" unit. I find that confidence unwarranted as they arrived at their conclusions based on botched up images and never changed it, even when the updated images did not support their claims anymore. With "The K-1 was the first full-frame Pentax DSLR, but it isn't in this list because it had a significant impact on the wider photography market (although in some respects it was very competitive, especially for landscape shooters)." they cement the point that the K-1 is no longer relevant (they excluded it from their "landscape" category recommendation) and that the K-1 has no relevance outside a niche Pentax-fanboy space. I admit, on face value, my perspective could be regarded as "reading too much into some phrasing", but given the history (a series of injustices against Pentax that always had to be corrected by readers) and their tradition of using loaded language, I'm not apologising for not giving them enough credit. They only mention Pentax when it does not hurt their MILC-pushing agenda and never without a slight against Pentax users as subtle as they sometimes manage to employ it. P.S.: As others mentioned already, the 645Z should have been mentioned as a record-breaker (along with a juicy "withholding the result for years"-story) and the 645D as a price-breaker. If DPReview really cared about Pentax, they would have least recognised the 645Z, given that it is still being sold. Last edited by Class A; 12-13-2019 at 09:28 AM.

12-13-2019, 07:23 AM - 1 Like	#80
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Right... while saying that we are loyal can be constructed in a positive manner, they're basically calling us closed minded.

12-13-2019, 07:34 AM	#81
danielblues Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Cascais, Portugal Posts: 173	Originally posted by Class A it does not hurt their MILC-pushing agenda We can't forget that, they do have an agenda, it's a very different site to the one a initial registered to back in 2001. Bashing is popular and Pentax is unfortunately the main target of many sites and channels.

12-13-2019, 07:48 AM - 1 Like	#82
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	They are basically calling us fanboys (and girls); but that's not new. Well, I like the pictures, the price-quality ratio and just how comfortable the cameras are.

12-13-2019, 08:42 AM	#83
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by danielblues We can't forget that, they do have an agenda, it's a very different site to the one a initial registered to back in 2001. Yes, wasn't owned by Amazon back then and was run by very different people. Not that the old DPReview was flawless, but it didn't seem to be this shilling machine it is today. Originally posted by danielblues Bashing is popular and Pentax is unfortunately the main target of many sites and channels. Imaging Resource was notable for appreciating Pentax cameras for what they are. Sadly, they are said to close at the end of 2019.

12-13-2019, 08:44 AM	#84
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Serkevan Well, I like the pictures, the price-quality ratio and just how comfortable the cameras are. Yeah, yeah, but how can you possibly manage without eye-AF and 10 fps? Plus, what's wrong with you not requiring 8K video at 120fps???

12-13-2019, 08:48 AM - 2 Likes	#85
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Originally posted by Class A Yeah, yeah, but how can you possibly manage without eye-AF and 10 fps? Plus, what's wrong with you not requiring 8K video at 120fps??? I don't, but that's because I'm a terrible 'tog Having eye-AF and 10 fps would only make my hard drive cry without any gain in picture quality, hah. Jokes aside, I don't think I've ever put the K-1 in burst mode. Not needed for what I shoot. I can trigger fast enough myself (around 1 fps) when I'm shooting a series of portraits in AF-S with constant refocus/recomposing, and I almost always get a couple that are good enough from the "burst".

12-13-2019, 09:24 AM	#86
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by ecostigny I think the discrepancy is due to their preferences for cameras that do it all (stills, video, tax returns, etc.) vs. cameras optimized for a relatively small set of given tasks. They recently discovered the idea that certain cameras only need to be good for their intended (possibly niche) application area. As usual, they are too slow on the uptake to benefit Pentax (e.g., they had trouble understanding the merit of IBIS and Pixel Shift when Pentax was leading with those features).

12-13-2019, 09:26 AM - 1 Like	#87
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Serkevan I don't, but that's because I'm a terrible 'tog In addition to being a loyal fanboy soldier of the Pentaxian army! Originally posted by Serkevan Jokes aside, I don't think I've ever put the K-1 in burst mode. Same here. I just don't need it for my photography. DPReview: Sue me!

12-13-2019, 10:35 AM	#88
H. Sapiens Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 328	Originally posted by Jonathan Mac I don't think so. Many users here use other camera brands too. I use Fujifilm and if're talking film then that list gets a lot longer. Actually the list only contains three DSLRs. All the others are mirrorless (yes, phones and compacts are mirrorless cameras too). As for drones, smartphones etc, to declare them the most important would be to disregard all the massive improvements in large-sensored cameras during that time period. You seem to have missed my point. I tried to flip the discussion for just a second. From a technology and enthusiast perspective, you are partly right. We have more mega pixels now. Invention of the mirror less cameras are definitely a technological achievement. For some, looking at an EVF with its information overlays is perhaps a necessity. For me OVF and EVF each have both pros and cons. From the perspective of photography as an artform and as a visual tool for capturing and documenting our world, these changes make little difference. We are talking marginal gains, not game changers. My next camera will likely be a drone. That will change the stories I can tell. A K new with faster AF and better ISO handling will be nice, but honestly, if that is all there is to it, Pentax don't have to hurry if you ask me - I can easily wait.

12-13-2019, 12:55 PM	#89
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Class A Yes, wasn't owned by Amazon back then and was run by very different people. Not that the old DPReview was flawless, but it didn't seem to be this shilling machine it is today. The same old DPReview who invented ratings just (hint, hint) for Pentax? The same old DPReview owned by "if you're not quiet I'll push the Pentax back in the review queue" Phil Askey?

12-13-2019, 02:53 PM	#90
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by Kunzite The same old DPReview who invented ratings just (hint, hint) for Pentax? Don't know about that. What was the story regarding Pentax-specific ratings? Originally posted by Kunzite The same old DPReview owned by "if you're not quiet I'll push the Pentax back in the review queue" Phil Askey? Didn't know about that either. Even if he had a problem with Pentax (more so than with other brands?), was he shilling as much as the new team do? The bigger the DPReview team got, the worse the content got (roughly).