Good news ... K-1 is one of 20 most important cameras of the decade - DPReview

Kunzite · 01-08-2020, 12:39 AM

Originally posted by xandos

If 'legitimate rhetoric technique' means it can win a debate in some cases (i.e., its an effective technique) than so are most fallacies.

Whether that definition works or not, both ad hominem and fallacies, regardless of efficiency are bad form, and do indeed take away from your own credibility even if the rest of your arguments are convincing.

(To go ad absurdum: if one wants to convince another person to do something they don't want to do, threats of violence or actual violence are an extremely effective technique. That doesnt mean they should be employed)

Ad hominem is often fallacious, but not always. Classic examples, an expert witness' credentials, the existence of conflict of interests...

Here I'm basically saying, put your money where your mouth is...

WorksAsIntended · 01-08-2020, 01:32 AM

No, you discredit somebodies analyses on a market situation based on the fact he is no customer of the brand discussed. That is far from being a valid point and in the end nothing but personal insult.

Kunzite · 01-08-2020, 02:20 AM

Originally posted by WorksAsIntended

No, you discredit somebodies analyses on a market situation based on the fact he is no customer of the brand discussed. That is far from being a valid point and in the end nothing but personal insult.

Are you arguing with me about what I wrote?

Then, argue by yourself. Bye!

Mistral75 · 01-08-2020, 02:22 AM - **1 Like**

What about going back on topic?

Kunzite · 01-08-2020, 02:24 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

What about going back on topic?

Great idea!

biz-engineer · 01-08-2020, 02:25 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Great idea!

Emotional control is the key :-)

---------- Post added 08-01-20 at 10:27 ----------

Originally posted by Mistral75

What about going back on topic?

The topic is Pentax K-1 was an important camera for Pentax, but it's not news anymore.

Ricoh didnt announce anything for CES L.V. So now we have to wait for CP+ end of Feb. 2020.

Mistral75 · 01-08-2020, 02:36 AM

^ Ricoh didn't exhibit at CES.

MMVIII · 01-08-2020, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by reh321

And maybe this technology will even make its way into another full frame camera sold the same time as the K-1 series. In the past week, both Canon {1DXiii - 20mp} and Nikon {D780 - 24mp} have announced new cameras smaller than 25mp; there is no reason Pentax couldn't announce one also; the news of "full frame camera development" does not mean only a camera 'higher' than the K-1 series.

I would not call these cameras 'lower' tha K-1... $6499 USD, body-only for the Canon and $2299 USD for the Nikon would not translate well in that class in the Pentax portfolio...

**Serkevan** · 01-08-2020, 03:47 AM

Well, the D780 has lower resolution, lacks GPS and on-board flash, has no IBIS, no cross-tilt screen. It of course has better AF, more speed (7 vs 4.4 fps), what looks like a great metering sensor and a touchscreen. Whether those features make it worth 4 or 500 bucks more than the K-1 is a different story. But more importantly, it's a Nikon. If you have a bunch of Nikon glass, then the D780 is better than anything Pentax (or any other DSLR brand) can offer.

**Rondec** · 01-08-2020, 04:02 AM - **1 Like**

I don't know if the K-1 made money, but it seems likely that many of the features on it were already tested on APS-C and so the R and D investment was spread across several models.

I always saw it as a D810-lite with a Pentax twist. That is, it included most of the features of the D810 (except for the low iso setting) plus it added IBIS, astro tracer, composition adjust, tilting screen, and GPS. And the cherry on top was that it was priced a thousand dollars less than the D810. This was a game changer and allowed more and more Pentaxians to get into full frame -- if you could save a thousand dollars for an APS-C camera, you probably could save an extra five hundred and get a used full frame K mount camera, if you wanted it.

That said, I don't think it affected the market as a whole. It isn't like Nikon immediately released the D850 and it had a bunch of features that the K-1 had -- nor did Canon release such a camera. But it did get generally positive reviews from those who were able to use -- even from the callus souls over at DP Review.

biz-engineer · 01-08-2020, 05:58 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Rondec

That is, it included most of the features of the D810 (except for the low iso setting) plus it added IBIS, astro tracer, composition adjust, tilting screen, and GPS. And the cherry on top was that it was priced a thousand dollars less than the D810.

I think Ricoh put everything they had into the K1, so they have put effort offering as much as they could given the technology they have. I couldn't say the same of Nikon or Canon when they offer new models by removing some features that they already have in house, just for the sake of avoiding canibalisation and inconsistency of prices between product categories.

MMVIII · 01-08-2020, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by Serkevan

Well, the D780 has lower resolution, lacks GPS and on-board flash, has no IBIS, no cross-tilt screen. It of course has better AF, more speed (7 vs 4.4 fps), what looks like a great metering sensor and a touchscreen. Whether those features make it worth 4 or 500 bucks more than the K-1 is a different story. But more importantly, it's a Nikon. If you have a bunch of Nikon glass, then the D780 is better than anything Pentax (or any other DSLR brand) can offer.

Sure, I should have said the Canon is not positioned as a lower class model and the Nikon might be something alike that in the Nikon universe, but still pricewise above any Pentax camera (not counting MF).
The K-1 is at 1499 € a great offer and as affordable as a entry FF- model could be. If you downsample the 36 Mp to 24 I'm sure no difference in DR or noise would be evident.

Kunzite · 01-08-2020, 07:21 AM

The K-1 was designed as a $2000 FF DSLR. That put limits on what they could reasonably do (or develop for the camera). No completely new electronics, no pro-level AF (they still updated the K-3's SAFOX), only as fast as necessary.

IMO - I said it before - the K-1 was a genius move: the entry level priced FF camera which avoids to be another entry level FF DSLR. The camera that is compared to the D8x00 rather than 6x0. The camera that plays on Pentax' strengths rather than weaknesses.

reh321 · 01-08-2020, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer;4892458[COLOR=Silver:

][/COLOR]The topic is Pentax K-1 was an important camera for Pentax, but it's not news anymore.

Ricoh didnt announce anything for CES L.V. So now we have to wait for CP+ end of Feb. 2020.

The key word is anymore.
The K-1 was an important event during the past decade.

MMVIII · 01-08-2020, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

I think Ricoh put everything they had into the K1, so they have put effort offering as much as they could given the technology they have. I couldn't say the same of Nikon or Canon when they offer new models by removing some features that they already have in house, just for the sake of avoiding canibalisation and inconsistency of prices between product categories.

I think this might also show the future steps in regard to FF successor. For APS-C K-new a new metering, AF and processing system are set, with new video, live-view and sensor-based AF systems. These will trickle up also in a K-1new. In the light of D780 and other offerings this might still be a very attractive camera.

01-08-2020, 04:02 AM - 1 Like	#295
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	I don't know if the K-1 made money, but it seems likely that many of the features on it were already tested on APS-C and so the R and D investment was spread across several models. I always saw it as a D810-lite with a Pentax twist. That is, it included most of the features of the D810 (except for the low iso setting) plus it added IBIS, astro tracer, composition adjust, tilting screen, and GPS. And the cherry on top was that it was priced a thousand dollars less than the D810. This was a game changer and allowed more and more Pentaxians to get into full frame -- if you could save a thousand dollars for an APS-C camera, you probably could save an extra five hundred and get a used full frame K mount camera, if you wanted it. That said, I don't think it affected the market as a whole. It isn't like Nikon immediately released the D850 and it had a bunch of features that the K-1 had -- nor did Canon release such a camera. But it did get generally positive reviews from those who were able to use -- even from the callus souls over at DP Review. Last edited by Rondec; 01-08-2020 at 12:31 PM.

01-08-2020, 06:58 AM	#297
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by Serkevan Well, the D780 has lower resolution, lacks GPS and on-board flash, has no IBIS, no cross-tilt screen. It of course has better AF, more speed (7 vs 4.4 fps), what looks like a great metering sensor and a touchscreen. Whether those features make it worth 4 or 500 bucks more than the K-1 is a different story. But more importantly, it's a Nikon. If you have a bunch of Nikon glass, then the D780 is better than anything Pentax (or any other DSLR brand) can offer. Sure, I should have said the Canon is not positioned as a lower class model and the Nikon might be something alike that in the Nikon universe, but still pricewise above any Pentax camera (not counting MF). The K-1 is at 1499 € a great offer and as affordable as a entry FF- model could be. If you downsample the 36 Mp to 24 I'm sure no difference in DR or noise would be evident. Last edited by MMVIII; 01-08-2020 at 07:29 AM.

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01-08-2020, 12:39 AM	#286
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by xandos If 'legitimate rhetoric technique' means it can win a debate in some cases (i.e., its an effective technique) than so are most fallacies. Whether that definition works or not, both ad hominem and fallacies, regardless of efficiency are bad form, and do indeed take away from your own credibility even if the rest of your arguments are convincing. (To go ad absurdum: if one wants to convince another person to do something they don't want to do, threats of violence or actual violence are an extremely effective technique. That doesnt mean they should be employed) Ad hominem is often fallacious, but not always. Classic examples, an expert witness' credentials, the existence of conflict of interests... Here I'm basically saying, put your money where your mouth is...

01-08-2020, 01:32 AM	#287
WorksAsIntended Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 639	No, you discredit somebodies analyses on a market situation based on the fact he is no customer of the brand discussed. That is far from being a valid point and in the end nothing but personal insult.

01-08-2020, 02:20 AM	#288
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by WorksAsIntended No, you discredit somebodies analyses on a market situation based on the fact he is no customer of the brand discussed. That is far from being a valid point and in the end nothing but personal insult. Are you arguing with me about what I wrote? Then, argue by yourself. Bye!

01-08-2020, 02:22 AM - 1 Like	#289
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	What about going back on topic?

01-08-2020, 02:24 AM	#290
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by Mistral75 What about going back on topic? Great idea!

01-08-2020, 02:25 AM	#291
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by Kunzite Great idea! Emotional control is the key :-) ---------- Post added 08-01-20 at 10:27 ---------- Originally posted by Mistral75 What about going back on topic? The topic is Pentax K-1 was an important camera for Pentax, but it's not news anymore. Ricoh didnt announce anything for CES L.V. So now we have to wait for CP+ end of Feb. 2020.

01-08-2020, 02:36 AM	#292
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	^ Ricoh didn't exhibit at CES.

01-08-2020, 02:57 AM	#293
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by reh321 And maybe this technology will even make its way into another full frame camera sold the same time as the K-1 series. In the past week, both Canon {1DXiii - 20mp} and Nikon {D780 - 24mp} have announced new cameras smaller than 25mp; there is no reason Pentax couldn't announce one also; the news of "full frame camera development" does not mean only a camera 'higher' than the K-1 series. I would not call these cameras 'lower' tha K-1... $6499 USD, body-only for the Canon and $2299 USD for the Nikon would not translate well in that class in the Pentax portfolio...

01-08-2020, 03:47 AM	#294
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Well, the D780 has lower resolution, lacks GPS and on-board flash, has no IBIS, no cross-tilt screen. It of course has better AF, more speed (7 vs 4.4 fps), what looks like a great metering sensor and a touchscreen. Whether those features make it worth 4 or 500 bucks more than the K-1 is a different story. But more importantly, it's a Nikon. If you have a bunch of Nikon glass, then the D780 is better than anything Pentax (or any other DSLR brand) can offer.

01-08-2020, 05:58 AM - 1 Like	#296
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by Rondec That is, it included most of the features of the D810 (except for the low iso setting) plus it added IBIS, astro tracer, composition adjust, tilting screen, and GPS. And the cherry on top was that it was priced a thousand dollars less than the D810. I think Ricoh put everything they had into the K1, so they have put effort offering as much as they could given the technology they have. I couldn't say the same of Nikon or Canon when they offer new models by removing some features that they already have in house, just for the sake of avoiding canibalisation and inconsistency of prices between product categories.

01-08-2020, 07:21 AM	#298
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	The K-1 was designed as a $2000 FF DSLR. That put limits on what they could reasonably do (or develop for the camera). No completely new electronics, no pro-level AF (they still updated the K-3's SAFOX), only as fast as necessary. IMO - I said it before - the K-1 was a genius move: the entry level priced FF camera which avoids to be another entry level FF DSLR. The camera that is compared to the D8x00 rather than 6x0. The camera that plays on Pentax' strengths rather than weaknesses.

01-08-2020, 07:22 AM	#299
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by biz-engineer;4892458[COLOR=Silver: ][/COLOR]The topic is Pentax K-1 was an important camera for Pentax, but it's not news anymore. Ricoh didnt announce anything for CES L.V. So now we have to wait for CP+ end of Feb. 2020. The key word is anymore. The K-1 was an important event during the past decade.

01-08-2020, 07:27 AM	#300
MMVIII Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: EU Posts: 1,121	Originally posted by biz-engineer I think Ricoh put everything they had into the K1, so they have put effort offering as much as they could given the technology they have. I couldn't say the same of Nikon or Canon when they offer new models by removing some features that they already have in house, just for the sake of avoiding canibalisation and inconsistency of prices between product categories. I think this might also show the future steps in regard to FF successor. For APS-C K-new a new metering, AF and processing system are set, with new video, live-view and sensor-based AF systems. These will trickle up also in a K-1new. In the light of D780 and other offerings this might still be a very attractive camera.