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01-09-2020, 08:25 PM   #361
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As limited resources as Ricoh as dedicated to R&D for the Pentax product line, I am not sure I'd want them diluting the limited resources in building two FF cameras. It sounds great in principle to have an entry level and a tricked out FF body, but I really think that's not realistic. Obviously the new APC-S K3 II* is coming, I am sure the R&D is complete and some folks are already working on specs for the K1 Mark III.

01-09-2020, 10:57 PM   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
So what????

In 2002, before I ever got a digital camera, I sent some Kodachrome 25 slides to a professional service. Setting myself up in our "library", where our computer was, with our projector and screen, I compared each scan to the slide it had come from. By the end of the evening, after looking for details all over the slides and finding them on the scans, I became convinced that I was getting about 6mp from my "Super Program", so I would wait on purchasing a digital camera until I was willing to purchase one that produced at least images with 3000 bytes in the horizontal dimension. Later around 2015, when I came back to Pentax, I used again the Pentax-A 50mm f/1.7 that had been used to take those slides, and discovered that it was capable of sharper images than the Kodachrome 25 were, so the lens was not cause of any loss of sharpness. So, 24mp doesn't sound bad at all to my ears - I'm not involved in the eternal search for more detail.
What you are searching for or why you bought a digital camera when you did isn’t really germane. He asked where the lost quality was in fewer megapixels. The answer is fewer megapixels, as in lower image detail.
01-09-2020, 11:15 PM   #363
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QuoteQuote:
---------- Post added 09-01-20 at 11:13 PM ----------

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Let's see first a hint about Ricoh Imaging working on a new FF...
Oh, but there was a rumour, in fact it was either that DFA24 guy or OokU(cant remember which) who put on that rumour up last year.. 2 FF cameras and 1 aps-c what is coming next. Now it was shot down quite quick, but it was there. Who knows.
01-10-2020, 01:51 AM   #364
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^ That was asahi man.

01-10-2020, 03:09 AM   #365
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a D850 level camera from Pentax but I doubt we will see one in the next Pentax full frame and I doubt that many Pentaxians will be willing to pay the price... A 24mp camera with better specs than D750 is more realistic and it will be a very welcomed camera to the ones who don't shoot landscape or to the ones who don't take pictures to pixel peep them and then resize them and post them on social media.

Why do you keep insisting it is realistic for pentax to release a camera with tech pentax currently doesn't have (fast framerate, high buffer, good AF which are all required to be competitive in the 24MP FF market) at a cheaper price than competitors who released such cameras that did already have that tech?

Pentax was able to release a good D810 competitor because the existing strengths of pentax (high IQ, tricks with the IS system to get extra detail and colour fidelity) could be used, and some things specific things (pixelshift, astrotracer) could be ported from other models (with some extra engineering of course). Pentax has never been a top contender in speed and AF in the digital world as far as I remember, so what makes you think they can suddenly bypass Nikon, Sony and Canon who have been investing research into these areas continuously? And then somehow come out with a cheaper product?

To me it seems like continuing to play to the traditional pentax strengths by putting out a D850 competitor at a lower-than-D850 price seems more plausible. That said, I'd be quite interested in a 24MP FF. I don't care much about the speed or AF though, and I think it would be hard for pentax to compete in the 24MP FF market.


I guess the new APSC might give a bit of a hint as to what will happen to the next FF. The new tech in that camera will likely end up in the next FF to some extent.
01-10-2020, 03:55 AM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If Ricoh made such compromises with K1, what makes you think that a 45mp camera won't have similar compromises given that Ricoh traditionally keep the price below competition and given the fact that the 45mp sensor needs more power than the 36mp sensor from K1?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a D850 level camera from Pentax but I doubt we will see one in the next Pentax full frame and I doubt that many Pentaxians will be willing to pay the price... A 24mp camera with better specs than D750 is more realistic and it will be a very welcomed camera to the ones who don't shoot landscape or to the ones who don't take pictures to pixel peep them and then resize them and post them on social media. Again, reducing the mp is not a compromise as long as K1 II exists and it has already 36mp. Nikon realize this with both D500 and D780. D500 has 20mp in a market where every other manufacturer has 24mp APS-C cameras and it's a beast of a camera. D780 kept the 24mp sensor and improved the overall performance and kept the price 1200$ below D850... Sony kept 24mp sensor in both APS-C and full frame. The reason is simple: they can offer a good performer for a lower price than the more specialized cameras.

D750 and A7 III are the best selling full frames from Nikon and Sony. Both have in common a 24mp sensor and both of them were/are pretty good for professional use and for day by day use at a cheaper price than D850 and A7 RIV. But in the era of social media people demand more mp in smartphones, in cameras because of details, because of occasionally crop or for printing large. Suddenly everybody need/has to print 60x60" images...

I shoot portraits and corporate events. For the below image I used a 20mp camera. A 36mp, a 45mp or a 61mp camera wouldn't get me a better image for the simple reason that both the photographer and the model were interested in other things. I'm all in for mp and high resolution cameras and I have a few friends who need the resolution. But, both high resolution cameras and action cameras are for specialized usage. The most used and sold full frame cameras are the more affordable and good all around performers. It's about alternatives and Ricoh already has an alternative for high mp cameras in K1 II. I may be wrong with this, but looking at the general discussions on this forum it seems that a 24mp camera would be quite well received.
A K-1next will surely have compromises, too; I do not know which because that's a choice Ricoh Imaging would have to make.
Even the 1Dx MkIII has compromises, e.g. it compromises resolution/size/weight for sheer speed. It's not a matter of "if", but of "which" I'm using compromise in the sense of making concessions (between conflicting requirements).

I don't know if Ricoh Imaging can fully match the D850, and by that I mean performance; considering that they need to develop new technologies (AF and faster hardware) and they'd sell fewer units, at a smaller price. But I'd very much like them to try doing as much as possible.
I actually don't think a D750 "clone" would work better... remember, my point is about the K-1 avoiding being compared to similarly priced cameras - but with more expensive ones instead. If Ricoh Imaging cannot match the D850 in performance/AF, they might match the D750/780 at most, and then... why would you choose the Pentax? The K-1's advantage disappears: you'd have a "lesser" camera at about the same price.

I don't get the point about Nikon and Sony making their 24MP cheaper. The discussion should be about Pentax... and their affordable FF is the 36MP K-1.
A new 24MP FF would be more expensive, not less; because the K-1/K-1 II are old and can be discounted. Is there any other reason to wish for a 24MP camera?
01-10-2020, 05:30 AM   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
^ That was asahi man.
Thank you for that. I knew that I did not make it up. If someone else did, not my fault

---------- Post added 01-10-20 at 14:36 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
A K-1next will surely have compromises, too; I do not know which because that's a choice Ricoh Imaging would have to make.
Even the 1Dx MkIII has compromises, e.g. it compromises resolution/size/weight for sheer speed. It's not a matter of "if", but of "which" I'm using compromise in the sense of making concessions (between conflicting requirements).

I don't know if Ricoh Imaging can fully match the D850, and by that I mean performance; considering that they need to develop new technologies (AF and faster hardware) and they'd sell fewer units, at a smaller price. But I'd very much like them to try doing as much as possible.
I actually don't think a D750 "clone" would work better... remember, my point is about the K-1 avoiding being compared to similarly priced cameras - but with more expensive ones instead. If Ricoh Imaging cannot match the D850 in performance/AF, they might match the D750/780 at most, and then... why would you choose the Pentax? The K-1's advantage disappears: you'd have a "lesser" camera at about the same price.

I don't get the point about Nikon and Sony making their 24MP cheaper. The discussion should be about Pentax... and their affordable FF is the 36MP K-1.
A new 24MP FF would be more expensive, not less; because the K-1/K-1 II are old and can be discounted. Is there any other reason to wish for a 24MP camera?
I have already said, that I’d pay same as I paid for K-1 when it was new = 2000€. If it was with 24 mp and it would be faster, and maybe even better video(we will see what that K-new is going to be, and I think it is going to be quick and have video up to the date(nothing fancy, update)) and wider array of focus points and most definetly new AF.

Maybe New FF is going to have that inherited, and will be with 36 or higher MP, because 36 is not so popular anymore? In that way more responsive alternative would be nice. Bigger guy for slower pace and smaller for you know

Edit: I’m not thinking of competition of nikon or sony or.. I’m talking about what would be nice. And it would also be in line with some other brands.


Last edited by repaap; 01-10-2020 at 05:39 AM.
01-10-2020, 05:41 AM - 2 Likes   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
If Ricoh made such compromises with K1, what makes you think that a 45mp camera won't have similar compromises given that Ricoh traditionally keep the price below competition and given the fact that the 45mp sensor needs more power than the 36mp sensor from K1?

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a D850 level camera from Pentax but I doubt we will see one in the next Pentax full frame and I doubt that many Pentaxians will be willing to pay the price... A 24mp camera with better specs than D750 is more realistic and it will be a very welcomed camera to the ones who don't shoot landscape or to the ones who don't take pictures to pixel peep them and then resize them and post them on social media. Again, reducing the mp is not a compromise as long as K1 II exists and it has already 36mp. Nikon realize this with both D500 and D780. D500 has 20mp in a market where every other manufacturer has 24mp APS-C cameras and it's a beast of a camera. D780 kept the 24mp sensor and improved the overall performance and kept the price 1200$ below D850... Sony kept 24mp sensor in both APS-C and full frame. The reason is simple: they can offer a good performer for a lower price than the more specialized cameras.

D750 and A7 III are the best selling full frames from Nikon and Sony. Both have in common a 24mp sensor and both of them were/are pretty good for professional use and for day by day use at a cheaper price than D850 and A7 RIV. But in the era of social media people demand more mp in smartphones, in cameras because of details, because of occasionally crop or for printing large. Suddenly everybody need/has to print 60x60" images...

I shoot portraits and corporate events. For the below image I used a 20mp camera. A 36mp, a 45mp or a 61mp camera wouldn't get me a better image for the simple reason that both the photographer and the model were interested in other things. I'm all in for mp and high resolution cameras and I have a few friends who need the resolution. But, both high resolution cameras and action cameras are for specialized usage. The most used and sold full frame cameras are the more affordable and good all around performers. It's about alternatives and Ricoh already has an alternative for high mp cameras in K1 II. I may be wrong with this, but looking at the general discussions on this forum it seems that a 24mp camera would be quite well received.
I see a lot of shifting goalposts and strawmen in some arguments here. As others have pointed out, it is not a very useful thought experiment of how much they could sell if they would produce a lower resolution camera, if your wishes include swift responsiveness (sports camera) while dreaming of an basic price, way below anyone actually offering such a combination. As also others have pointed out, the development of speedier components for the smaller format might give us a hint what could be possibly/probably transferred to small format (aka FF). We can do some calculations, estimating the possible speed of data throughput with the new processing pipeline, considering a higher resolution sensor and a lower one. But as basically all components would be the same I can not see the price advantage of a lower resolution model beyond a possible price difference in the very sensor, which might be just marginal in purchase for Ricoh. Sure, they might bring out two models with exactly such a resolution (and therefore speed) difference, but I would highly doubt one of these might be significantly cheaper. Which does not mean that they might still be good offers in comparison to other companies models, but for sure they can not reach the street price of a previous generation model still on sale or be just plain "entry model cheap" in FF.
01-10-2020, 07:02 AM   #369
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The problem with bringing out two models is that they'd have to develop an even more powerful hardware and AF for the upper level one.
01-10-2020, 08:43 AM   #370
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QuoteOriginally posted by xandos Quote
Why do you keep insisting it is realistic for pentax to release a camera with tech pentax currently doesn't have (fast framerate, high buffer, good AF which are all required to be competitive in the 24MP FF market) at a cheaper price than competitors who released such cameras that did already have that tech?

Pentax was able to release a good D810 competitor because the existing strengths of pentax (high IQ, tricks with the IS system to get extra detail and colour fidelity) could be used, and some things specific things (pixelshift, astrotracer) could be ported from other models (with some extra engineering of course). Pentax has never been a top contender in speed and AF in the digital world as far as I remember, so what makes you think they can suddenly bypass Nikon, Sony and Canon who have been investing research into these areas continuously? And then somehow come out with a cheaper product?

To me it seems like continuing to play to the traditional pentax strengths by putting out a D850 competitor at a lower-than-D850 price seems more plausible. That said, I'd be quite interested in a 24MP FF. I don't care much about the speed or AF though, and I think it would be hard for pentax to compete in the 24MP FF market.


I guess the new APSC might give a bit of a hint as to what will happen to the next FF. The new tech in that camera will likely end up in the next FF to some extent.
It doesn't have to compete with Canon or Nikon or Sony. It has to be a little faster than K1 while keeping the features that allready exists in their other cameras (pixel shift, accelerator unit, astrotracer, etc.). The 24mp sensor from Sony allows for 7-10fps and it doesn't require a powerfull processor as it will require a 45mp sensor. Bare in mind that D850 has a dedicated processor for it's af system and it shoots only 7fps (9 with battery grip). I doubt that Pentax will go for a dedicated af processor for their new camera if they decide to go to 45mp and this translates mostly in the same compromises that K1 has (slow fps, slow buffer clearing, etc.). My point was related to why the majority of people (regardless the manufacturer) tends to use 24mp cameras. Pentax allready has a 36mp camera for landscape and for pixel peepers. Why not try and please the others who don't need resolution but will appreciate a faster workhorse camera that doesn't have to compete with any other camera from a different brand?! And again, it's just my opinion and I don't think I'm insisting in a 24mp camera more than other insists in a 45mp camera.

---------- Post added 01-10-20 at 03:48 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
A new 24MP FF would be more expensive, not less; because the K-1/K-1 II are old and can be discounted. Is there any other reason to wish for a 24MP camera?
Lots of reasons. But, as long as you're attracted to high resolution cameras, none of the other reasons about why a 24mp camera will be a good addition for the allready high resolution K1 will apply to you.
01-10-2020, 08:55 AM - 3 Likes   #371
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This thread reminds me of fantasy sports where there is endless debate on building the perfect team. Unlike sports, where at the end of the season there is a definitive winner, only one possible reality will have actual results.
01-10-2020, 08:58 AM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The problem with bringing out two models is that they'd have to develop an even more powerful hardware and AF for the upper level one.
They will have to in any case - and lower specs for the lower one; that is what "entry level" means.
01-10-2020, 08:59 AM - 1 Like   #373
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
I see a lot of shifting goalposts and strawmen in some arguments here. As others have pointed out, it is not a very useful thought experiment of how much they could sell if they would produce a lower resolution camera, if your wishes include swift responsiveness (sports camera) while dreaming of an basic price, way below anyone actually offering such a combination. As also others have pointed out, the development of speedier components for the smaller format might give us a hint what could be possibly/probably transferred to small format (aka FF). We can do some calculations, estimating the possible speed of data throughput with the new processing pipeline, considering a higher resolution sensor and a lower one. But as basically all components would be the same I can not see the price advantage of a lower resolution model beyond a possible price difference in the very sensor, which might be just marginal in purchase for Ricoh. Sure, they might bring out two models with exactly such a resolution (and therefore speed) difference, but I would highly doubt one of these might be significantly cheaper. Which does not mean that they might still be good offers in comparison to other companies models, but for sure they can not reach the street price of a previous generation model still on sale or be just plain "entry model cheap" in FF.
There are no shifting goalposts and strawmen arguments in my comments. As you and others, I posted my opinion based on several things, from the argument of why 24mp full frame cameras are the most sold ones in other brands (which is a reason that 24mp cameras are still released today, D780 being an example) and up to my shooting experience with 24, 26, 30, 36 and 45mp full frame cameras.

To landscape photographers the number of mp would probably count (especially for the ones who print and sell large). To wedding photographers on the other hand a 45mp camera can be a nightmare due to various reasons (very demanding sensor, slow fps and buffer clearing as long as it will not have a dedicated processor, it will require big, expensive and modern memory cards, etc.).

---------- Post added 01-10-20 at 04:13 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
They will have to in any case - and lower specs for the lower one; that is what "entry level" means.
I think there is a confusion here. I'm not talking about an entry level. K1 and K1 II are both the Pentax flagships. I would love to see how a 24mp Pentax flagship will look like at the price of 2000$ (which I think it was the price of K1 and K1 II at their release), not an entry level one. And by flagship I'm not talking about a D5/1Dx level. I'm talking about a flagship based on the resources that Pentax has at their disposal.

Even a lot of pentaxians who have K1 say they don't need the K1 resolution so why not try and please the ones who really don't need high mp cameras? Because if you ask me, higher they go in terms of mp, more niche the use of those cameras will be.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 01-10-2020 at 09:38 AM.
01-10-2020, 09:23 AM - 2 Likes   #374
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I think it is extremely unlikely, with the current market situation, that Pentax will have more than 3 k mount SLRs in their line up -- 2 APS-C and 1 full frame. There is, of course, some overlap when a new camera, like the K-1 II is released and the old K-1 is still around for awhile to stock is depleted.

I do think Pentax will eventually release a K-1 II sequel with a little faster frame rate and sharing some of the (hopefully faster) auto focus systems that will be in the K-new, flagship APS-C camera. The K-1 II may stick around for a bit at a cheaper price, but I don't think that will be a long term plan.

Odds for K-1 II sequel are not going to be for less megapixels or a lower price. Even if there are a few people out there who want one or both of those things.
01-10-2020, 09:39 AM - 2 Likes   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
There are no shifting goalposts and strawmen arguments in my comments. As you and others, I posted my opinion based on several things, from the argument of why 24mp full frame cameras are the most sold ones in other brands (which is a reason that 24mp cameras are still released today, D780 being an example) and up to my shooting experience with 24, 26, 30, 36 and 45mp full frame cameras.

To landscape photographers the number of mp would probably count (especially for the ones who print and sell large). To wedding photographers on the other hand a 45mp camera can be a nightmare fue to various reasons (very demanding sensor, slow fps and buffer clearing as long as it will not have a dedicated processor, big, expensive and modern memory cards, etc.).
Pentax could release the Holy Grail wedding camera, and pro photographers would ignore it. Pentax is simply not on their radar, and at this point, never will be. It is pointless to ask them to market something that is simply not desired in the marketplace, which is exactly what a full frame Pentax geared to wedding photographers would be. That market is sewn up by Nikon, Canon and Sony, and Pentax has as much chance of breaking into it in a significant way as Nissan has a chance of being significant in the full size pickup truck market with the Titan.
It's a great truck, I own one, but they sell as many of them in a year as Ford sells F150s on any given Tuesday morning.
Likewise, Pentax makes a great camera, and I own one (actually more like 12), but they aren't going to break into the pro photographer market at this point. That ship sailed in 1979, an it isn't coming back to the dock anytime soon.


---------- Post added 01-10-20 at 04:13 PM ----------


QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I think there is a confusion here. I'm not talking about an entry level. K1 and K1 II are both the Pentax flagships. I would love to see how a 24mp Pentax flagship will look like at the price of 2000$ (which I think it was the price of K1 and K1 II at their release), not an entry level one. And by flagship I'm not talking about a D5/1Dx level. I'm talking about a flagship based on the resources that Pentax has at their disposal.

Even a lot of pentaxians who have K1 say they don't need the K1 resolution so why not try and please the ones who really don't need high mp cameras? Because if you ask me, higher they go in terms of mp, more niche the use of those cameras will be.
Pentax is already a niche product. The reason they are where they are is because they spent a couple of decades trying and failing to do exactly what you are asking of them. They tried, and they went out of business doing it.
Ricoh is a pretty savvy company, they are not likely to repeat the mistakes that sent Pentax to the auction block in the first place.
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