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05-28-2020, 06:55 AM - 2 Likes   #676
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QuoteQuote:
but that Pentax doesn't sell that many cameras that it is worth third party lens brands while to make new lenses available for it.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Most of us will buy Pentax glass for Pentax cameras....
Sometimes we'll buy 3rd party glass if we can't afford Pentax glass.

In my case, I always end up using the Pentax over the Sigma when I have a choice for a variety of reason, WR, light weight, things like that. At this point I tend to think of the 3rd parties as something to use until I get some thing better.

05-28-2020, 06:59 AM   #677
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L-mount seems much more likely to succeed vs. m4/3 due to sensor size possible with the L-mount. The landscape is very different than it was when m4/3 was new. I also think that having three very different companies sharing L-mount is better than Oly & Panasonic as they're much more similar. But this is probably fodder for a different discussion.


What's the inexpensive go-to portraits lens for a new photog looking at the Pentax system (I am not asking for myself)? Obviously not this, and the FA 77 isn't really cheap either, so... 3rd party 70-200 while they're still available? Used glass? Use the power of positive thought to summon a DA 50-135 mkII that covers full frame? That won't be inexpensive either...

---------- Post added 05-28-20 at 08:02 AM ----------

To Norm's Point: If there's a 1st party optic available that ticks the boxes, sure, but so often there isn't. Wide primes and the Samyang 135 f2 are examples I'm thinking of. Also manual focus glass with aperture rings if you're one of those weirdos still shooting film...
05-28-2020, 07:05 AM - 3 Likes   #678
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The MTF curves are
WOT?!?

They are going to sell it on this planet, right?
05-28-2020, 07:11 AM - 3 Likes   #679
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This is not to in any way say that the D-FA 85 is not the equal or better of the Otus, but, were those lenses both measured on the same optics bench to remove camera body/sensor/etc differences that would impact comparisons?

Someone at Ricoh Imaging needs to make sure that a lot of the humble wording of their describing the development process of this lens, and everything else about it, is removed. Time to brag a bit.

05-28-2020, 07:22 AM - 1 Like   #680
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
They talk about reduced LoCA. It seems the often referenced Sigma 85mm Art has some room for improvement:*
https://www.opticallimits.com/images/8Reviews/lenses/sigma_85_14art_canon/loca_f14.jpg
https://www.cameralabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/loca_Sigma85f1-4Art_10572-6-7.jpg
same for the Canon:
https://www.opticallimits.com/images/8Reviews/lenses/canon_85_14is/loca_f14.jpg
and the Zeiss Otus:
https://www.cameralabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/loca_Zeiss85f1-4Otus_44218-0.jpg

The Nikon couples LoCA with ghastly Halos in front of the focal plane:
https://www.opticallimits.com/images/8Reviews/lenses/nikkor_afs_85_14_d3x/loca_f14.jpg
https://www.cameralabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/loca_Nikon85f1-4G_71459-61.jpg

Will also be interesting to see if it has focus shift. The Sony 85mm GM suffers badly there:
Sony FE 85mm f/1.4 GM - Review / Test Report - Analysis

* = For a laugh on dptabloid typical fanboyism you can read what Dxomark / dptabloid have to say to this level of LoCA:
So LoCa is that purple / green stuff that we see on those pictures?

Sometimes I use that for manually focussing in 10x live view with my 100mm Macro WR. I go back and forth between green ans purple to find the focus plane.

QuoteOriginally posted by RanchuPhoto Quote
HD PENTAX-D FA?85mmF1.4ED SDM AW

2k for the lens, seems pretty expensive to me. Sony 85mm F1.4 G Master is only 1499 at the moment.
Yes, 2k is a lot of money. But it is a long time joy. Look at the previous *85mm, it is still excellent after so many years. Spread over several years, it isn't so expensive any more. Additionally, It seems that this lens comes from the future.
05-28-2020, 07:25 AM - 2 Likes   #681
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QuoteOriginally posted by sbh Quote
So LoCa is that purple / green stuff that we see on those pictures?

Sometimes I use that for manually focussing in 10x live view with my 100mm Macro WR. I go back and forth between green ans purple to find the focus plane.
Yes. LoCA --> longitudinal --> along the main axis of the lens --> color changes in front of and behing of the focus plane (green versus magenta).
05-28-2020, 07:27 AM - 2 Likes   #682
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
What's the inexpensive go-to portraits lens for a new photog looking at the Pentax system (I am not asking for myself)?
The DA 50/1.8 on crop sensor (or the DA* 55/1.4 for a middle ground). I think Ricoh is pushing the format divide - they don't have a lot of inexpensive full frame lenses and seem to be aiming at the top shelf lately.
With a bit of luck they'll go for the budget options after the Star lineup looks solid, but that will take a while - something in the quality/price ratio of the Canikon 85/1.8 lenses would be a welcome addition methinks.


On an unrelated note, anyone kind enough to plaster the MTF charts all over DPR? They deserve knowing about it.

(A couple of Fukuda-san's sample photos look positively gorgeous and have done nuthin' but reinforce my idea of traveling to Japan)
05-28-2020, 07:33 AM - 3 Likes   #683
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
they don't have a lot of inexpensive full frame lenses and seem to be aiming at the top shelf lately.
It was a stated company directive. Pursue high return on investment, not market share.

I'm always curious about folks who insist they need lenses a few mm apart from what's available and can't cover it with zooms.

I'm also still quite curious about folks who have to have 1.4 lenses. IMHO they are curiosities which hold my interest for about a week after I buy them, but I rarely use mine wide open, and they become just another lens. (Albeit a really big one.)

A woman acquaintance who knew I was a Pentax shooter (and also worked at the closest to me camera store) once put a D800 with the Nikon 85 1.4 in my hands to try and sell me a Nikon. It was an attempt to leverage this "no modern 85 1.4 in K mount" thing.

They are definitely a niche product. However, because of the forces in marketing that emphasize the availability of the niche markets, Pentax was losing reputation by not having them.

To a certain extent, people want what they can't have, until they find out how much what they want costs, then they don't want it anymore.

Pentax seems to make their lenses in order of popularity in on-line polls. A lot of people apparently asked for an 85 1.4. I hope they were all saving their pennies.


Last edited by normhead; 05-28-2020 at 07:50 AM.
05-28-2020, 07:38 AM   #684
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It was a stated company directive. Pursue high return on investment, not market share.
I know, but the absolute-peak-of-the-market doesn't necessarily bring in more ROI than a slightly less solid performer that can made to a lower price point, bringing in many times the customers (this D FA* definitely has more margin per unit than most other lenses, though). But I'm terrible with money and have gotten into ramming contests with Financing departments some times
05-28-2020, 07:38 AM   #685
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Coming from MTFs. There is another aspect when comparing lenses and that is manufacturer quality control.
Lensrentals shows solid data here. Poor quality control results in wide colored areas, good quality control leads to narrow color corridors.

Now watch some 85mm lenses:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/media/2018/01/85mm-variance.jpg

That the corridors get bigger towards the outer edges of the frame points at widespread decentering issues which show up worst on the edges.

There you see why Sigma has to be cheap and give loong warranties. Ok, it doesnt explain Sony's quality control problems with a high price GM lens.
Canon is the reference class here.
05-28-2020, 07:38 AM - 2 Likes   #686
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote

I thought they were trying to sell something...
Hello? This is Pentax! They weren't trying to sell something since the days of Spotmatic!
05-28-2020, 07:46 AM - 2 Likes   #687
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Thanks for the link, very interesting.

Also good to see some sample images.

With all due respect, though, the images by Shintaro Shiratori are not good.
It may be his style, but the lighting is not what most would consider good portrait lighting.

It would have been pretty easy to show the lens in a better light than was accomplished here.
I will get right on that.......

---------- Post added May 28th, 2020 at 08:50 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I wouldn't hold my breath, Thor.

Proprietary standards suit consumers, they don't suit the sellers. We have to think of how the world actually operates and you're thinking like a customer, not a desperate executive.

The m43 alliance has failed, I think the L mount alliance will too.

Canon and Nikon have both moved to brand new proprietary mounts. They hate Tamron, Sigma and Tokina. There's no 'ecosystem' as far as they're concerned, unless you mean 'host and parasite'.

And it's obvious why. You don't want to be the sucker selling bodies for other companies to put their lenses on. One strategy of the past was to sell the bodies relatively cheaply, almost like loss leaders, and get it back on the lenses.
^^^^This^^^^
When I was in the game, we made more money on a cheap UV filter than on a camera body.
05-28-2020, 07:55 AM   #688
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
The DA 50/1.8 on crop sensor (or the DA* 55/1.4 for a middle ground). I think Ricoh is pushing the format divide - they don't have a lot of inexpensive full frame lenses and seem to be aiming at the top shelf lately.
With a bit of luck they'll go for the budget options after the Star lineup looks solid, but that will take a while - something in the quality/price ratio of the Canikon 85/1.8 lenses would be a welcome addition methinks.


On an unrelated note, anyone kind enough to plaster the MTF charts all over DPR? They deserve knowing about it.

(A couple of Fukuda-san's sample photos look positively gorgeous and have done nuthin' but reinforce my idea of traveling to Japan)
Yeah, I guess a new photog would probably go to the crop side of the house, where thankfully the DA 50 1.8 is still available as well as a variety of 1st and 3rd party solutions exist.


On further reflection, for either crop or FF shooters, from low to high and only considering price, there's the DA 50, FA 50, D-FA 50 Macro, DA 70, D-FA 100, DA*55, FA 77, D-FA*50and now this D-FA*85. Plus zooms. And a few 3rd party options, all of which seem pretty decent (but not sure how much longer they're available brand new). Not such a bad situation to be in really. A 135mm f2 or f1.8 might be a nice addition but not sure if that lens really pulls in purchases in decent volume these days.
05-28-2020, 08:05 AM - 2 Likes   #689
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
The DA 50/1.8 on crop sensor (or the DA* 55/1.4 for a middle ground). I think Ricoh is pushing the format divide - they don't have a lot of inexpensive full frame lenses and seem to be aiming at the top shelf lately.
With a bit of luck they'll go for the budget options after the Star lineup looks solid, but that will take a while - something in the quality/price ratio of the Canikon 85/1.8 lenses would be a welcome addition methinks.


On an unrelated note, anyone kind enough to plaster the MTF charts all over DPR? They deserve knowing about it.

(A couple of Fukuda-san's sample photos look positively gorgeous and have done nuthin' but reinforce my idea of traveling to Japan)
I dunno, if you wanted to get into Pentax FF on the cheap, just grab the HD Pentax-D FA 28-105mm F3.5-5.6 ED DC WR zoom and let it be your walk about lens until you can afford some fast primes. I don't see an issue with Pentax having "entry level" products. Now, if you mean they should have a plastic fantastic, slightly slower prime alternative for every high end prime they release, then yeah, Pentax isn't for you right now. But why overlook their excellent zooms as alternatives? Even the F2.8 zooms are a bargain for focal length coverage with good IQ compared to buying the 50 & 85, with a weight penalty of course... but not all that bad compared to the bag of primes you'd have to carry.

Maybe I'm just not fussy enough but it seems to me that Pentax current roadmap is getting the bases covered pretty well for entry level on up.
Eric
05-28-2020, 08:06 AM - 2 Likes   #690
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
I know, but the absolute-peak-of-the-market doesn't necessarily bring in more ROI than a slightly less solid performer that can made to a lower price point, bringing in many times the customers (this D FA* definitely has more margin per unit than most other lenses, though). But I'm terrible with money and have gotten into ramming contests with Financing departments some times
That assumes that in the current market you can achieve the kind of price points that could bring in more customers. In a shrinking market that could be tricky.

That coupled with the fact that in thousands of discussions over the years, it's become really clear, prime shooters are interested in the absolute maximum quality. No one is going to by a prime that produces worse IQ than a zoom that covers the same range. And zooms have gotten to be really, really good. So that leaves, next to perfect optics and tweaks that can only be performed for a single focal length to make the primes better. MY DA 35 plastic fantastic is one of my least used lenses. IMHO it's sharp, but it's still nothing special. Buying it was a mistake. Even in my polls people preferred some pretty cheap zooms to the way it rendered. There's absolutely no point in bringing a lens like that to market, in this market. Prime shooters are going for one thing, ultimate IQ. Better than zoom IQ, and that these days is hard to achieve.

You need something to catch people's attention. And right now, people with money are your target market.

Last edited by normhead; 05-28-2020 at 08:52 AM.
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