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03-25-2020, 02:38 PM - 3 Likes   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
KAF4. Again this....

While I could/would accept it in case of standard or kit lenses, I can't accept it when it comes to a * (premium) lens.

I'll keep my Sigma (KAF3), which works fine on my K-7 (10 years old).
I would not accept apremium lens that doesnt sport the top line KAF4 mount. I am quite relaxed in the way that I expect Ricoh to share my view 100%.

03-25-2020, 02:43 PM - 2 Likes   #92
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Also, a way to sell more of the current SLR-line...
03-25-2020, 02:55 PM - 3 Likes   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
KAF4. Again this....

While I could/would accept it in case of standard or kit lenses, I can't accept it when it comes to a * (premium) lens.



I'll keep my Sigma (KAF3), which works fine on my K-7 (10 years old).
You weren't going to buy it anyway; but the people who would appreciate things like a modern aperture control, focus motor, optical design... even if they don't match a K1000 or something.
03-25-2020, 03:34 PM - 1 Like   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You weren't going to buy it anyway
Are you sure?

(By the way, modern does not always mean better.)

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Also, a way to sell more of the current SLR-line...
...once being released to the market...?

QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
So a premium lens shouldn't have what Pentax considers the premium aperture system?
QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I would not accept a premium lens that doesnt sport the top line KAF4 mount. I am quite relaxed in the way that I expect Ricoh to share my view 100%.
What you call premium aperture system I regard as... cheap and possibly faulty.
I've never had any troubles concerning the aperture control lever, but I've already experienced several issues with the tiny data pins. Aperture being stopped down by a tiny motor built into the lens? Why should we need it?

To shorten the life cycle of our lenses, I guess.... An A*85 built in 1984 keeps working like a charm. D-FA* with tiny data pin and tiny motor after 36 years... I have doubts.
Sorry, guys. I don't see the point in replacing the well proven mechanical solution by a finicky digital/electronic thing which brings nothing but potential troubles.

We've complained about "crippled" (camera) K-mount, so now we have a crippled lens mount also. I'm not mad about it.

(Correct me if I'm wrong... If AF dies, you can still focus manually (and continue using the lens). Should electronic aperture control die, the lens (without both aperture lever and/or ring) becomes unusable...)


Last edited by zzeitg; 03-25-2020 at 03:45 PM.
03-25-2020, 04:22 PM - 3 Likes   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
That's also a bold statement. Driven by how one defines "performances".

The two probable points of improvement will probably be AF (mostly the silent thing) and aberrations, where indeed the 77 is somewhat lacking because of the design choices made at the time.

However, those design choices were there for a reason. The rendering capabilities of the 77, its bokeh, and moreover the transition from in-focus to out-of-focus, is what explain the 3D pop that the FA Limited have. Simply put, as a test bench equipment the 85 is sure to vastly outperform the 77. But as a creative tool? Not so obvious.



Having compared both, I agree. Still, having tested the D FA* 50, by "normal" lens of choice remains the FA43 to this day.


That's a much more sensible way of putting it, I think
Yes I know. People get to define something by whatever criteria they decide to use, generally to backup a narrative.
So, I define it by sharpness (resolution), contrast, flare control, lack of aberrations, especially fringing (something the 77 suffers badly from), and while this is not quite as easy to measure, bokeh and 3 dimensionality of the image.
For me, a secondary consideration is AF speed, again something the 77 is not especially known for.
Also, I can guarantee you that the new lens will outperform the 77 at f/1.4.

The 77 will win on size, weight and cost, but none of these are performance criteria, though people will certainly try to classify them as that (see my first sentence in this post).

Creative people can use anything to create, I think the "creative tool" thing is a red herring.. However, if the equipment is limiting, creativity can be somewhat hobbled. This will be a heavy lens, people might find that this limit's their ability to create, but one could also sy they are limited by their own physical performance.

---------- Post added Mar 25th, 2020 at 05:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
KAF4. Again this....

While I could/would accept it in case of standard or kit lenses, I can't accept it when it comes to a * (premium) lens.



I'll keep my Sigma (KAF3), which works fine on my K-7 (10 years old).
Full backwards compatibility for lenses is a thing of the past. It's something we just need to get used to.
03-25-2020, 04:40 PM - 1 Like   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Also, I can guarantee you that the new lens will outperform the 77 at f/1.4.
you can take that to the bank! the 77 only goes to 1.8 .

seriously though, the 85 should stomp every other lens.
03-25-2020, 04:43 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by sculptor666 Quote
you can take that to the bank! the 77 only goes to 1.8 .

seriously though, the 85 should stomp every other lens.
At this stage, a comment about the law of diminishing returns is probably in order.

03-25-2020, 05:43 PM - 1 Like   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
At this stage, a comment about the law of diminishing returns is probably in order.
That isn't exactly a performance criteria though.
03-26-2020, 01:37 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
What you call premium aperture system I regard as... cheap and possibly faulty.
I've never had any troubles concerning the aperture control lever, but I've already experienced several issues with the tiny data pins. Aperture being stopped down by a tiny motor built into the lens? Why should we need it?
In the case of Nikon, lenses with mechanical aperture "only" go to 10 fps on the D6 (also D5?), while electromagnetic lenses can shoot up to 15 fps. Not that it's particularly needed, but hey. It is also supposed to have less adjustment problems (leading to more accurate metering), although I haven't had problems with this if you ignore that stop-down metering on my 3 M-series lenses is whacky.


QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
To shorten the life cycle of our lenses, I guess.... An A*85 built in 1984 keeps working like a charm. D-FA* with tiny data pin and tiny motor after 36 years... I have doubts.
Sorry, guys. I don't see the point in replacing the well proven mechanical solution by a finicky digital/electronic thing which brings nothing but potential troubles.

We've complained about "crippled" (camera) K-mount, so now we have a crippled lens mount also. I'm not mad about it.

(Correct me if I'm wrong... If AF dies, you can still focus manually (and continue using the lens). Should electronic aperture control die, the lens (without both aperture lever and/or ring) becomes unusable...)
If it makes you feel any better, we have several EF lenses that are nicely over 20 years old (25 and 21 respectively IIRC) that work like a charm. After surviving a lot of use during a South American half-year bike trip with their previous owner
03-26-2020, 02:27 AM - 4 Likes   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
...
(Correct me if I'm wrong... If AF dies, you can still focus manually (and continue using the lens). Should electronic aperture control die, the lens (without both aperture lever and/or ring) becomes unusable...)
It'll work at F1.4 on your K7 straight out of the box. If the electronics failed, it would still work at F1.4 on all K mounts - and probably produce what most want from a 85mm F1.4 lens. Why would Ricoh stick with KAF3 for a new FF lens, when the only FF digital camera they have ever sold has KAF4???

I don't follow your logic.

03-26-2020, 02:51 AM - 3 Likes   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
KAF4. Again this....

While I could/would accept it in case of standard or kit lenses, I can't accept it when it comes to a * (premium) lens.



I'll keep my Sigma (KAF3), which works fine on my K-7 (10 years old).
But, if you ever got a camera that experienced aperture block failure, you KAF4 lenses would continue to function normally, while your lenses with an aperture lever would all only work completely stopped down to f22 or whatever.

(Every coin does have two sides and I've heard of far more issues with aperture block than with KAF4 failing).
03-26-2020, 06:05 AM - 4 Likes   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Are you sure?

(By the way, modern does not always mean better.)
Would you? Answer honestly (to yourself).
Sorry, but "I wanted to get this expensive new lens to pair with my old K-7 which I won't upgrade" isn't very convincing. Get a K-1 - problem solved.
Bashing the modern solution is the wrong approach. Particularly as you don't have any facts to support it.

Modern is more often than not better, for some definition of better.
In this case it means much improved optics, top notch AW build, fast and silent AF, fast, accurate, silent aperture mechanism.
I'm not willing to give up on any of those.
03-26-2020, 06:06 AM   #103
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I am more concerned about af motors brakeing. Many lenses these days use focus by wire and those will not focus manually after the motor broke.
I generally think, we need to accept that camera gear is build to be used one or two decades, not to be passed down generations.
If a lens brakes after 10 years, it is not unexpected. A FA77 may also fail after a few years (thinking of the screws came loose issue which happend quite a few times with the fa limites), still it is considered a high quality build.
03-26-2020, 06:07 AM - 3 Likes   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
What you call premium aperture system I regard as... cheap and possibly faulty.
The issue is entirely on your side.
"Cheap", as if similar mechanisms wouldn't be used even in lenses costing as much as a new car. Faulty, as if similar mechanisms aren't in use for decades.
Ridiculous.
03-26-2020, 06:07 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by phoebus Quote
I don't follow your logic.
My logic says that we can have lenses built like a tank, but when there's a so called "built-in obsolescence", we are forced to replace them more frequently. And that's not something I would need.

QuoteOriginally posted by phoebus Quote
If the electronics failed, it would still work at F1.4 on all K mounts
So that might be called fixed focal length + fixed aperture edition.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Full backwards compatibility for lenses is a thing of the past. It's something we just need to get used to.
I can get used to. Or not. What's better for the brand in the end? To get over the loss of customer like me, or to invest some small money and maintain the backwards compatibility? (Maybe by implementing both mechanical and electronic aperture control?)

QuoteOriginally posted by phoebus Quote
Why would Ricoh stick with KAF3 for a new FF lens, when the only FF digital camera they have ever sold has KAF4???
QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
In the case of Nikon, lenses with mechanical aperture "only" go to 10 fps on the D6 (also D5?), while electromagnetic lenses can shoot up to 15 fps.
K-1 / K-1 II should be KAF2, but I know what you mean.

In both cases 4.4 (6.5 in crop mode) fps indicated. Is this value getting higher in case of KAF4 lenses?

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
But, if you ever got a camera that experienced aperture block failure, you KAF4 lenses would continue to function normally,
That's possibly true. However, normally I change cameras more often than lenses. So defective lens is considered by myself as bigger problem.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I've heard of far more issues with aperture block than with KAF4 failing
Could there be coherence with the fact that KAF4 is relatively new ?

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Would you? Answer honestly (to yourself). Sorry, but "I wanted to get this expensive new lens to pair with my old K-7 which I won't upgrade" isn't very convincing. Get a K-1 - problem solved.
No need to get a K-1, as I have one already since May 2016 (early adopter).

QuoteOriginally posted by WorksAsIntended Quote
I generally think, we need to accept that camera gear is build to be used one or two decades, not to be passed down generations.
Isn't that sad? Greta from Sweden would not be happy.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Ridiculous.
You have your opinion, I have mine. And I also have many nice experiences with SDM focus motors.

Last edited by zzeitg; 03-26-2020 at 06:37 AM.
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