[Serkevan]

Keeping third Party interestedon Pentax K would mean propably Going to haveto ditch mirror. Besides. Ricoh has simply made up their way already. Do lenses they care for most, them selves, and borrow a good/best alternative for rebrand. Save money with more ’boringdesign’. Downside is that thirdparty is withdrawing. Still there are some.

It is quite obvious that sigma is most wanted these days. If one like Sigma, there is not so many ways in Pentax -land.Should be clear by now, at latest. Kind a think that this discussion has been done several times.

On the other hand, if one really like their Pentax lenses, well thereare other ways for the ones who love adapters, but they kind a do shine on Pentax cameras. This goes for any brand with their OEM lenses (there should not be surprises either). Now this lens is not cheap. But perhapstheir plan(ricoh) is to make so attractive lens, that it will gain attention. And at the same time make Pentaxians feel, like they actually have a premium line to be proud of. Even if many might not buy it, it is there.

Then there will be lot of guys saying, that they can get similar results with _______ -lens, even better. And that is fine too.

I’m goingto wait for photos To emerge from those lucky ones who willget this lens at first.

Yep, at this point everyone should have gotten the memo that it's going to be Pentax stuff or old stuff. Since the gear I can afford is still better than me, I have no issues staying here, it's cozy and the IQ is great .

---------- Post added 05-26-20 at 06:11 AM ----------

I guess beholder3 is talking about something like this?
Nikon Japan announces price increases of up to 18% for lenses and flash units: Digital Photography Review

Prices on Ebay are irrelevant when we discuss the MSRP of a yet unannounced lens. You can always find a cheaper price, if it's the street price of an older lens, a heavily discounted replaced lens, gray import, second hand, stolen...
The Nikon 85mm f/1.4 was launched in 2010, and is made to different standards. The D FA* 85mm should easily go below 2000 in a decade - bar another price adjustment.

No, I mentioned the Ebay price because beholder said the Canon lens is worse and should be cheaper - if this were true, the price that people are willing to pay would be lower, not a 20% discount over the street price of a new lens sold by Amazon.

I specified the Nikon was made 10 years ago in a completely different state of the camera industry, but apparently that part should have been bolder and bigger...

[repaap]

Side note: Nothing wrong to be happy with FA 77. I have one and I'm really happy with it. I also have DFA*70-200(Big) and I'm super happy with it too. I have Sigma 85/1,4 DG EX and I'mquite happy with it, but no, AF is not so good, with k-1 in LoW/Hi -contrast situations, no worries, can overide it with MF. Bu there is difference in 'pop' with 85 vs. 77. Especially in wide apertures. As there is with 70-200/2.8. You have to zoom it till 100-120 to get to same ballpark with 77 or 85. And to make biggest difference would be that aperture range from 1,4-2.8(they say that bokeh balls will be round till then) So yes, it is special circumstances. And yes, PF is strongest at there too. If one want that kind of performance. There simply is no other option. AND that is why they really took some time and effort to nail this one. And that is why it has prize tag as high as it is.


Just to weight in something to look at besides just those numbers. And yes. digital colorcorrection works up untill some point.

[sbh]

I wish I could know the markups at each stage of production and distribution

I have thought about that, too. Idk, but the DFA*70-200 came to mind with a similar price (2.300 € rrp and 2.069 € street price). The Margin per unit of the 85 should be better due to less cost – not knowing which one would sell in higher volumes.

That’s expensive. As a matter of interest I googled what the A* 85’s 1984 price of $770 would be adjusted for inflation. It comes out to about $2,000. I guess that’s what this kind of niche lens costs.

I wonder whether this is considerably more than the the DFA* 50 because there’s no deal with Tokina to spread costs.

Still, this the kind of lens you can build a career on if you have a business in portrait photography, so it will be worth it for some people.

Yea, I would have expected something around 1.800€ maximum because I took the fat fifty as a starting point. But for someone working in Photography, this level of glass does good service. Even beyond portraits, for product shots I would expect high end results in detail and colours using pixelshift. 85mm is an ideal focal length for product shots.

The penny is not dropping is it?
Ricoh is taking Pentax towards Zeiss and Leica land for prices. Take your highest end Nikon, Canon, Sony... there is a gap between those and the 2 German brands, that is where Pentax is heading, between the mass market and the reassuringly expensive. Or think of Limiteds as Milvus and DFA* as OTUS. Actually looking at it that way and the DFA*50/1.4 is a bit of a bargain

When the market gets tight, often the motto is "up or out". The cheap mass market isn't particularly attractive in such situations. Reducing the volume means upping the price just to cover the fixed cost. However, this only works if quality and performance is there to command higher prices. If Pentax sees an open gap, then why not go for it!? Being a small player with a reputation for good quality products they are in a good position to do so.

[beholder3]

Do you have a source for that? Because in my experience high-end electronics haven't particularly gotten more expensive (except for phones, but one could argue they are a completely different beast from a decade ago). I have been paying the same money for similar-range laptops, phones and assorted "luxury" stuff for 13 years now.

I took the very recent Nikon D780 release MSRP compared against that of its direct predecessor. This comparison should mirror quite well the Nikon "inflation". In Europe that is +16,2% for the 5,x years.

If I want to argue the case I'd pick the A7I (1500) release price versus the A7III (2300). That is +52% in 4,4 years. Sony inflation.

[vietnam74]

Side note: Nothing wrong to be happy with FA 77. I have one and I'm really happy with it. I also have DFA*70-200(Big) and I'm super happy with it too. I have Sigma 85/1,4 DG EX and I'mquite happy with it, but no, AF is not so good, with k-1 in LoW/Hi -contrast situations, no worries, can overide it with MF. Bu there is difference in 'pop' with 85 vs. 77. Especially in wide apertures. As there is with 70-200/2.8. You have to zoom it till 100-120 to get to same ballpark with 77 or 85. And to make biggest difference would be that aperture range from 1,4-2.8(they say that bokeh balls will be round till then) So yes, it is special circumstances. And yes, PF is strongest at there too. If one want that kind of performance. There simply is no other option. AND that is why they really took some time and effort to nail this one. And that is why it has prize tag as high as it is.


Just to weight in something to look at besides just those numbers. And yes. digital colorcorrection works up untill some point.

You’ve forgot DFA* 50mm f1.4. Can always zoom with my feet to get similar perspective and quality as 85mm too.

[Serkevan]

I took the very recent Nikon D780 release MSRP compared against that of its direct predecessor. This comparison should mirror quite well the Nikon "inflation". In Europe that is +16,2% for the 5,x years.

If I want to argue the case I'd pick the A7I (1500) release price versus the A7III (2300). That is +52% in 4,4 years. Sony inflation.

Then I would like to point out that the D810 (2014) and D850 (2017) had a +0% . (And no, the D780 didn't get a huge price hike: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d780-review).


"The Nikon D780 is available now with an MSRP of $2,299.95 (the same price as the D750 in 2014)"

[repaap]

You’ve forgot DFA* 50mm f1.4. Can always zoom with my feet to get similar perspective and quality as 85mm too.

I actually have DA *55 also, it is completelly different from 77 and 85. Even if it has F1.4. Being ’normal’ lens it has different distortion than photo shot with 85, even if you would ’zoom’ with your legs. There is a reason why 85 is preferred as Classical focal for portraits. Not saying that one can’t shoot great portraits with 50 mm also, or even 50(my case 55/1,4) cropped in camera to match ’focal lenght’. Zoomin with legs changes perspective

[beholder3]

No, I mentioned the Ebay price because beholder said the Canon lens is worse and should be cheaper - if this were true, the price that people are willing to pay would be lower, not a 20% discount over the street price of a new lens sold by Amazon.

I shouldnt have mentioned Canon, especially with glass. As undisputed market leader they can charge a premium over what would be a fair price from the small players (Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc).


Generally the cheapo buyers will have to face the industry trend up market, which means even proactive shedding of ex-potential-buyers who were not willing to invest in new glass at full margins anyhow.
If (and that might be likely) Ricoh have found a way to develop and produce profitably very small batches we need to keep in mind Pentax are just a toy store for Ricoh overall. They might not even have the goal to compete 1:1 to the biggies.

So if anyone looks at his/her lens collection and >50% is from Sigma/Tamron directly he/she might even be "not welcome". Combine this with for example a situation where the camera all these non-Pentax lenses hang on is a K-5 generation.
That certainly is not completely unusual business practise.

Look at current RF/Z mounts: Canon and Nikon seem to have negative interest for 3rd party glass. Obviously the damage of 3rd party glass to margins is higher than the gained margins on some (older) extra bodies sold.

[Serkevan]

I shouldnt have mentioned Canon, especially with glass. As undisputed market leader they can charge a premium over what would be a fair price from the small players (Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc).


Generally the cheapo buyers will have to face the industry trend up market, which means even proactive shedding of ex-potential-buyers who were not willing to invest in new glass at full margins anyhow.
If (and that might be likely) Ricoh have found a way to develop and produce profitably very small batches we need to keep in mind Pentax are just a toy store for Ricoh overall. They might not even have the goal to compete 1:1 to the biggies.

So if anyone looks at his/her lens collection and >50% is from Sigma/Tamron directly he/she might even be "not welcome". Combine this with for example a situation where the camera all these non-Pentax lenses hang on is a K-5 generation.
That certainly is not completely unusual business practise.

Look at current RF/Z mounts: Canon and Nikon seem to have negative interest for 3rd party glass. Obviously the damage of 3rd party glass to margins is higher than the gained margins on some (older) extra bodies sold.

No, the thing is I agree with this analysis completely. As I said the D FA* 85 isn't substantially more expensive than other options. Heck, I posted the other lenses to show that it's not THAT bad because some people were saying Ricoh is out of their minds .

And yep, Canon can get away with having some overpriced glass in the lineup (although they have many solid performers at relatively reasonable prices, it's just that Pentax has traditionally spoiled customers with a great price/quality ratio). Regarding 3rd parties, I mentioned before that they only benefit OEMs if they push a decision to buy-in into a system. Otherwise, they detract from the camera manufacturer's profits.

[Wheatfield]

You’ve forgot DFA* 50mm f1.4. Can always zoom with my feet to get similar perspective and quality as 85mm too.

Actually no you can't. Perspective is controlled by camera position, not focal length. You can zoom with your feet to control subject size, but as soon as you move the camera, the perspective changes.

---------- Post added May 26th, 2020 at 10:33 AM ----------

No, the thing is I agree with this analysis completely. As I said the D FA* 85 isn't substantially more expensive than other options. Heck, I posted the other lenses to show that it's not THAT bad because some people were saying Ricoh is out of their minds .

And yep, Canon can get away with having some overpriced glass in the lineup (although they have many solid performers at relatively reasonable prices, it's just that Pentax has traditionally spoiled customers with a great price/quality ratio). Regarding 3rd parties, I mentioned before that they only benefit OEMs if they push a decision to buy-in into a system. Otherwise, they detract from the camera manufacturer's profits.

I expect that going forwards, Pentax will continue with products offering a great price/quality ratio, but they will be doing that with rebrands and cobrands. Of course this will just give the complainers more to complain about. Witness the reception that the 70-210/4 received.
I'm very happy with the direction Ricoh is taking the brand. I happen to like really good quality glass. My photography is geared towards high resolution imagery, which is why I was drawn to large format.
For me, better lenses really do make for better photography.

[vietnam74]

I actually have DA *55 also, it is completelly different from 77 and 85. Even if it has F1.4. Being ’normal’ lens it has different distortion than photo shot with 85, even if you would ’zoom’ with your legs. There is a reason why 85 is preferred as Classical focal for portraits. Not saying that one can’t shoot great portraits with 50 mm also, or even 50(my case 55/1,4) cropped in camera to match ’focal lenght’. Zoomin with legs changes perspective

Forgot about that! I did not do much portraits. 🤣 Then my choices only with the DFA* 700-200mm f2.8 or Pentax K 85mm f1.8 till the new lens’ price drop to $1K range. 😅 Hopefully its quality matches its price tag. 😜

[repaap]

Forgot about that! I did not do much portraits. 🤣 Then my choices only with the DFA* 700-200mm f2.8 or Pentax K 85mm f1.8 till the new lens’ price drop to $1K range. 😅 Hopefully its quality matches its price tag. 😜

There is also m85/2

[monochrome]

AFA the release price of the 85/1.4, I suspect part of the decision is related to assessing the current market (both the secular downtrend in DSLR and the cyclical current Economic conditions) and reducing expectations for unit seals - especially size of the initial batch. IIRC the initial batch of DFA*50/1.4 was 3000 Units, which sold out on pre-order. I’ll be curious to hear the rumored size of the initial 85/1.4 batch and to see the uptake in pre-order units. IMO it shouldn’t be $850 or so higher than the 50 unless the projected production and sales is significantly below that of the 50.

At current price I’m not a buyer. I pre-ordered the DFA50/1.4.

[robbiec]

Forgot about that! I did not do much portraits. 🤣 Then my choices only with the DFA* 700-200mm f2.8 or Pentax K 85mm f1.8 till the new lens’ price drop to $1K range. 😅 Hopefully its quality matches its price tag. 😜

Just get the 77 and luxuriate in its splendor. Blows the K85/1.8 away.

[Mistral75]

HD Pentax-D FA★ 85mm f/1.4 ED SDM AW:

• weight: 1,255g
• available on 26 June 2020

Source: Nokishita Camera Twitter