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07-11-2020, 10:00 AM - 1 Like   #346
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Pentax will most likely be fine. They won't find themselves with a dozen engineering teams suddenly twiddling their thumbs or with entire production lines having to pause. .
Since they do not have a dozen engineering teams. Once they finish the “K-3ii replacement”, they can get back to building their “FF” line, which I really doubt will stay at just one.

07-11-2020, 10:19 AM - 1 Like   #347
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Since they do not have a dozen engineering teams. Once they finish the “K-3ii replacement”, they can get back to building their “FF” line, which I really doubt will stay at just one.
The some of the tech developed for the K-new will undoubtedly be in the next FF model. But since it's not out yet, we have no idea what will be of interest, and what will be included.

---------- Post added 07-11-20 at 01:20 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I've taken to putting a lot of things like groceries on my Amazon card, and just paying it all off every month. Mostly because my wife never says anything about what I do with my points!
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07-11-2020, 06:05 PM - 1 Like   #348
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Since they do not have a dozen engineering teams. Once they finish the “K-3ii replacement”, they can get back to building their “FF” line, which I really doubt will stay at just one.
Their will be only one FF at any time.
07-11-2020, 06:59 PM - 8 Likes   #349
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Everything I've heard about the K-new leads me to believe that it is designed beat the Nikon D500, so it will be good value but not cheap. My expectation is that the new APS-C will come out positioned clearly above the KP in terms of price and capability. So the APS-C line-up will look like this (existing models are official Ricoh store prices, but the street price is 20-30% lower).

Low: K-70 - JPY 78,936
Mid: KP - JPY 140,250
High: "K-new" - JPY 220,000

Then common sense dictates that the K-new improvements will be in a full frame camera. Ricoh has also indicated that future models will have a higher pixel count. So you end up with a camera that looks much like a D850. That will be above the current model, leaving plenty of space below for the K-1 II to continue as the low-end model.

Low: K-1 II - JPY 258,500
High: "K-FFnew" - JPY 390,000

Canon and Nikon have had better AF because they had high-end halo models which the new tech was developed for. Then it cascades down to the more affordable models. Pentax hasn't had this for many years. That's why it's exciting to see what Ricoh can do with a 2,000 dollar budget for an APS-C camera. Given Canon and Nikon's current direction, it's likely that the K-new will never be equalled by an OVF based APS-C competitor.

This is the first time Ricoh has developed a whole new platform while having an APS-C and FF line-up. It would make sense to develop both concurrently. I don't think they will develop the APS-C and start designing the FF camera only afterwards. Nikon launched the D500 and D5 on the same day with a lot of shared technology. It's a bit fanciful to think Ricoh could do the same, but even so I don't think we'll have to wait another two years for the next full frame camera - more like 6-12 months.

Of course, everything above is my speculation.

07-12-2020, 12:33 AM - 2 Likes   #350
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Pentax is releasing a lot of higher end stuff these days. DFA85 is in $2000 class, K1 is in this class, Knew will also hit this price tag. Pentax also showed the new 16-50/2.8 - the 50-135 will follow. Nobody expects new interesting APS-C glass from CaNikon. APS-C is very much alive in Pentax land. What Pentax does not have is a range of sports and birding glass, so Knew will have to perform in more/other areas than D500. Anyways it will be great and September is close. K1 will have the edge in resolution and will stick around longer than we may think. New aps-c hardware developments will become FF modules, even if they start the serious FF camera development after Knew. So no worries here, COVID is more a thread to sales and release dates.
The next year will be very interesting wrt high-end Pentax gear. The gear needs to sell, time to save up.
07-12-2020, 01:22 AM - 1 Like   #351
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
Pentax is releasing a lot of higher end stuff these days. DFA85 is in $2000 class, K1 is in this class, Knew will also hit this price tag. Pentax also showed the new 16-50/2.8 - the 50-135 will follow. Nobody expects new interesting APS-C glass from CaNikon. APS-C is very much alive in Pentax land. What Pentax does not have is a range of sports and birding glass, so Knew will have to perform in more/other areas than D500. Anyways it will be great and September is close. K1 will have the edge in resolution and will stick around longer than we may think. New aps-c hardware developments will become FF modules, even if they start the serious FF camera development after Knew. So no worries here, COVID is more a thread to sales and release dates.
The next year will be very interesting wrt high-end Pentax gear. The gear needs to sell, time to save up.
Ironically, the K-1 was the FF digital with the *lowest* release price when it was introduced

The K-New will be better than the D500 in some aspects - for starters, the OVF will be better, the camera is smaller (the Nikon machine is bigger than the K-1!) and Pentax actually has APS-C glass like you said, while Nikon has IIRC 2 or 3 DX primes (35/1.8 and 60mm macro I think?). I expect IQ to be nothing short of excellent and we'll see where the AF ends... it's gonna be "good" but we don't know just *how* good.

I'm skipping the K-New and probably the K-1iii, my budget is all dedicated to the 21... But there are exciting times ahead!
07-12-2020, 01:24 AM   #352
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
That's why it's exciting to see what Ricoh can do with a 2,000 dollar budget for an APS-C camera.
What about the promise of Ricoh to release the successor of K-3II? In the first place people were waiting for the K-3III. A $2000 is definitely not the successor of the K-3II (release for $1100) as well as a $3500 is not the successor of K-1II. K-3II users are already not interested by KP as it was lower end as their K-3II. I am ok if Ricoh release new higher end models, but priority is K-3II successor targeting people that purchase in the K-7,K-5,K-3 price range and it's not $2000. Most pentaxian ready to buy for more than $1300-1400 already purchased K-1. For me $1500 IS the absolute maximum and it will require more than a joystick and a bigger OVF. I remember the enormous gap between k5 and K3 and the price was similar...

07-12-2020, 02:22 AM - 6 Likes   #353
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QuoteOriginally posted by superdave Quote
What about the promise of Ricoh to release the successor of K-3II? In the first place people were waiting for the K-3III. A $2000 is definitely not the successor of the K-3II (release for $1100) as well as a $3500 is not the successor of K-1II. K-3II users are already not interested by KP as it was lower end as their K-3II. I am ok if Ricoh release new higher end models, but priority is K-3II successor targeting people that purchase in the K-7,K-5,K-3 price range and it's not $2000. Most pentaxian ready to buy for more than $1300-1400 already purchased K-1. For me $1500 IS the absolute maximum and it will require more than a joystick and a bigger OVF. I remember the enormous gap between k5 and K3 and the price was similar...
Well I don't know the price of the camera. It might be $2,000 or as low as $1,500. But I think you are taking the idea of a successor too literally.

- Did Ricoh ever use the term K-3 II successor? I don't remember that. I remember being told in the CP+ 2019 presentation that it keeps the concept of the K-7/K-5/K-5 lineage, but at the same time hearing that it is planned to be the class-leading APS-C camera on the market. They also said they have never seriously tried to make a truly class-leading APS-C camera until now. Separately, I heard that it was misleading to think of it as a "K-3 III". The fact that all they have disclosed is the body design and the OVF specs does not mean they are the only improvements - most of it is still a secret.
- Was the K-3 II successful enough to warrant a direct successor? As far as I can see, the K-3 II was historical low-point for the series. I know it's still a very good camera, but I don't think it was well received. Did Ricoh look at sales figures and say "Yes we want more of that!"? Certainly over here the KP seems to have sold a lot better, so they probably feel validated in launching that model.
- I sympathise with anyone who finds they can't afford what they want. I'll need to wait for it to come down in price too. However, you have to accept that top-class APS-C cameras are expensive these days. Almost all brands have a crop camera that costs 1,500 or more in their line-up (Canon 7D II, Nikon D500, Fujifilm X-pro 3, X-T4, Olympus EM-1 Mark III, EM1X, Panasonic GH5, G9). Why should Ricoh not address this market?

Having said all that, I do trust Ricoh to offer value for money, whatever price point they target. I think it will be better than anything else you can get for the money.
07-12-2020, 02:24 AM - 1 Like   #354
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QuoteOriginally posted by superdave Quote
For me $1500 IS the absolute maximum
You ignore the market trends. They will not. I expect something around 1799 EUR and not anything that "will blow anyone out of the water", just something with considerable improvements (as all makers with all cameras have done the last years). Don't like it? Go buy another product, as always.

If we trust the narrative certain popular tabloids have set up recently, then the existence of the IBIS alone is worth around $500-700 surcharge to an otherwise similarly speced model. So a camera that does absolutely nothing better than the D500 other than IBIS would be fairly priced at 2,000+ EUR.

Anyone expecting a K-3 successor for less than $1,600 is unwelcome to any brand I think.
07-12-2020, 03:11 AM   #355
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
You ignore the market trends. They will not. I expect something around 1799 EUR and not anything that "will blow anyone out of the water", just something with considerable improvements (as all makers with all cameras have done the last years). Don't like it? Go buy another product, as always.

If we trust the narrative certain popular tabloids have set up recently, then the existence of the IBIS alone is worth around $500-700 surcharge to an otherwise similarly speced model. So a camera that does absolutely nothing better than the D500 other than IBIS would be fairly priced at 2,000+ EUR.

Anyone expecting a K-3 successor for less than $1,600 is unwelcome to any brand I think.
Agreed. As K-5 to K-3 jump, there were not as big change in camera, only evolution of processor, and ofcourse better shutter, and sensor. Roughtly said. There was new RBB sensor. But nowthey have renewed completelly AF everything. It is totally new system to be able to keep up with ’competition’ with mirror still in camera(quite a task, eh).

I’d believe of launch price of 1990 € which is around 1600$ usually, because of well, Finnish tax system.
As said before, it might be in line of K-3, as a real ’flagship’, but that would not necessarily mean it will have same launch price.

Also K-1 new 3000 could be possible, if it is high resolution model...which will lead me to wait upgrade for lower resolution model, since 36 MP is enough for me for FF...but that is another thing.
07-12-2020, 03:40 AM   #356
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
If we trust the narrative certain popular tabloids have set up recently, then the existence of the IBIS alone is worth around $500-700 surcharge to an otherwise similarly speced model.
Wait , then where is my free K-70 sans-SR? Where is my free K-70???

I jest, I jest. Pentax has us spoiled, I expect something like 1800€ as well because things have gotten more expensive. Hopefully it will have a killer kit with the 16-50/2.8 PLM coming later for 2300€ or so.

---------- Post added 07-12-20 at 03:52 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Anyone expecting a K-3 successor for less than $1,600 is unwelcome to any brand I think.
As of now I see the XT4 at 1750€ (about $1600 before tax), the A6600 at 1400€ and... that's about it for the current APS-C flagships* right? The 90D is quite comparable to the K-3 and released for about the same price, but the K-new will probably be a much better machine (and we don't get the benefit of feature trickle from the 1D/5D/7D series to reduce the price,. we'll see "trickle up" to the K-1iii).

*Okay, Sony can call the A6600 whatever they want but that thing is a glorified point and shoot.

---------- Post added 07-12-20 at 03:53 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
Also K-1 new 3000 could be possible, if it is high resolution model...which will lead me to wait upgrade for lower resolution model, since 36 MP is enough for me for FF...but that is another thing.
I'd be happy with a 24 MP FF, honestly. Lighter on the computer and not a huge difference for my printing/display sizes
07-12-2020, 05:00 AM - 2 Likes   #357
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QuoteOriginally posted by superdave Quote
What about the promise of Ricoh to release the successor of K-3II? In the first place people were waiting for the K-3III. A $2000 is definitely not the successor of the K-3II (release for $1100) as well as a $3500 is not the successor of K-1II. K-3II users are already not interested by KP as it was lower end as their K-3II. I am ok if Ricoh release new higher end models, but priority is K-3II successor targeting people that purchase in the K-7,K-5,K-3 price range and it's not $2000. Most pentaxian ready to buy for more than $1300-1400 already purchased K-1. For me $1500 IS the absolute maximum and it will require more than a joystick and a bigger OVF. I remember the enormous gap between k5 and K3 and the price was similar...
There was no such promise. That is, while they clearly promised a new APS-C flagship they never said it would be priced like a K-3II.
In the CP+2019 interview, they said:
"It’s in development. It is being developed as the highest (flagship) model in the APS-C lineup. Although we cannot provide specific information such as specifications or a release date, it is planned to be a very attractive product for current K-3 users".

For those who can't afford it: wait for the final product, see what it is about, then start cutting features/improvements until you reach your price.
For example, no more advanced AF. Performance is the first to go if you do a budget camera.
Will you still be interested in the result?
07-12-2020, 05:27 AM   #358
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QuoteOriginally posted by ThorSanchez Quote
I've taken to putting a lot of things like groceries on my Amazon card, and just paying it all off every month. Mostly because my wife never says anything about what I do with my points!
100% with you!
07-12-2020, 07:28 AM   #359
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
Agreed. As K-5 to K-3 jump, there were not as big change in camera, only evolution of processor, and ofcourse better shutter, and sensor.
I don't agree, almost every single component of the K-5 has been improved in the K-3, and that's not tiny improvements (even more in K-3II: GPS!! + sensor shift resolution).

16 to 24 Mpxls
11 to 27 AF points
-3 AF sensibility
More FPS,
60 FPS video
No AA filter
Larger LCD screen
77 to 86000 points metering sensor
Faster processor
Dual card slot
USB-3
100000 to 200000 shutter actuations

We are 7 years after the original K-3, this is the largest gap between two models ever. I am sure Pentax could improve many many things to make K-3 and K-3II users happy without necessarely doubling the price of the K-3II. They are generally asking $100 more than previous generation.
07-12-2020, 07:40 AM - 2 Likes   #360
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QuoteOriginally posted by superdave Quote
I don't agree, almost every single component of the K-5 has been improved in the K-3, and that's not tiny improvements (even more in K-3II: GPS!! + sensor shift resolution).

16 to 24 Mpxls
11 to 27 AF points
-3 AF sensibility
More FPS,
60 FPS video
No AA filter
Larger LCD screen
77 to 86000 points metering sensor
Faster processor
Dual card slot
USB-3
100000 to 200000 shutter actuations

We are 7 years after the original K-3, this is the largest gap between two models ever. I am sure Pentax could improve many many things to make K-3 and K-3II users happy without necessarely doubling the price of the K-3II. They are generally asking $100 more than previous generation.
Ooku's statement that they are trying to match the D500 suggests it might be a little more expensive.
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