[monochrome]

Source?

Mostly guess. Some thread or another here too.

[Fontan]

As I've many times explained, I was owed pension money, I got a wad

Norm you could have moved to the Leica Land with me with that wad. 😳

---------- Post added 07-15-20 at 02:30 PM ----------

Actually, in September the choice matrix for a new Pentax DSLR will be robust. K-new is step 1 in the transition to the new Pentax DSLR architecture. K-new will showcase most all the new tech - and the fundamentally redesigned imaging logic - that will be added to the FF [EDIT] maybe 51MP camera that replaces K-1 ll in 2021. There may be a surprise coming on the next FF that isn’t ready yet which will change everything.

If you want a fast Sports / Action / Birding camera with better than acceptable video you buy a K-new. If you want a somewhat slower, higher resolution field / studio camera for the DFA*50/1.4 and DFA*85/1.4 (and eventually DFA*35/1,.4), you wait a year and buy the (maybe) $2,300 FF or two years and buy the (maybe) next 645 (or vice versa). If you want a generalist camera or don’t want to pay $1,800 +/- plus sales tax, you buy KP or K-70 or K-1 ll and live with old tech. That’s five choices including 645z !!!

Lenses are lenses. They’re independent of cameras (except old DA designs that vignette on FF). You buy what you can afford that will give what you need. There will be several new lenses in both formats over the next two years, many / most of them Ricoh designs. If you can’t afford * lenses buy the next best lens that fits your budget but don’t complain about that.

It’s just choices. I can either do the 85 or the 21 Limited. At the moment I’m waiting for the 21. I’ll can either do K-new orr K-next FF. At the moment I’m waiting for the FF. I don’t need the new 16-50 or 50-135 because FF is my choice. I don’t need the DA70-210/4 because keeping FA*80-200/2.8 is my choice. Carrying mass is my choice.

Etc.

Damn you are pretty smooth. I was almost convinced I was wrong. 😅

[Serkevan]

But how many people think owning one makes them a pro?

Well to be honest the only thing that makes people a pro is being paid. Everything else is fluff.

In any case, by entry level I meant in terms of features and such - the camera is perfectly capable of making beautiful pictures.

[thibs]

Well to be honest the only thing that makes people a pro is being paid. Everything else is fluff.

In any case, by entry level I meant in terms of features and such - the camera is perfectly capable of making beautiful pictures.

Absolutely. The use of "Pro" noun is very unfortunate in this context but not surprising at all. Marketing, marketing....

[Zygonyx]

I kind of hope it's called a 'K-3 III', anyone else?

I repeat myself, but I see K-2

[ogl]

K-2, to say honest, was my idea several years ago....Everybody could check my posts ))
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/357904-k3ii-replac...ml#post4432692
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/359674-k-1-mark-ii...-2#post4202472
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/359999-pentax-k3ii...ml#post4193658

but maybe anybody else thought in such way....

[ThorSanchez]

I think that APS-C will feel updated if everybody else around you is shooting FF.

I would be curious what percentage of "bird" shooters are using APS-C. Would it be better to, perhaps, to shoot with faster and more accurate AF despite having a bigger sensor? I dunno.

I don't know I've ever been in a situation where sensor size came up. I've rarely been in situations where I'm shooting and other people want to have conversations about their cameras. So the influence of others with FF gear has essentially zero impact on how I feel.

I once ran into a guy in Iceland shooting with a 645Z while I had my K-3ii. It was a brief, funny interaction. And never for a second did I get a pang of jealousy that I wasn't carrying around a camera the size of a small child.

And I don't shoot a lot of birds, much more of kids running around playing soccer. And the other parents with ILCs (maybe three on my oldest son's team) there appear to mostly have Canikon APS-C rigs, including the one who bills herself as a semi-pro photographer who does work for the local youth league.

---------- Post added 07-15-20 at 07:50 AM ----------

At this stage, APSC is a niche, especially an advanced level APS-C feels like to me like beating a dead horse. I just don’t see how they can get away with it by selling above two grand. This is forever accentuated by the death of m3/4 for sure.

APS-C is an unusual and interesting niche since it outsells the supposedly mainstream FF. I'm not sure anyone has posted a rumor that the K-new will be over two grand. Ooku said something like $2k for the initial price, which will almost certainly fall in the months after release.

---

Last edited by ThorSanchez; 07-15-2020 at 04:50 AM.

[thibs]

K-2, to say honest, was my idea several years ago....Everybody could check my posts ))
K3ii replacement - Page 52 - PentaxForums.com
K-1 Mark II! - Page 48 - PentaxForums.com
Pentax K3ii officially discontinued - Page 4 - PentaxForums.com

but maybe anybody else thought in such way....

Mmm you trademarked it or what ?

[ogl]

Mmm you trademarked it or what ?

It's just funny games of brain and nothing else...just my guess, but it could be mistake

[Fontan]

I don't know I've ever been in a situation where sensor size came up. I've rarely been in situations where I'm shooting and other people want to have conversations about their cameras. So the influence of others with FF gear has essentially zero impact on how I feel.

I once ran into a guy in Iceland shooting with a 645Z while I had my K-3ii. It was a brief, funny interaction. And never for a second did I get a pang of jealousy that I wasn't carrying around a camera the size of a small child.

And I don't shoot a lot of birds, much more of kids running around playing soccer. And the other parents with ILCs (maybe three on my oldest son's team) there appear to mostly have Canikon APS-C rigs, including the one who bills herself as a semi-pro photographer who does work for the local youth league.

---------- Post added 07-15-20 at 07:50 AM ----------



APS-C is an unusual and interesting niche since it outsells the supposedly mainstream FF. I'm not sure anyone has posted a rumor that the K-new will be over two grand. Ooku said something like $2k for the initial price, which will almost certainly fall in the months after release.

I think there is lots of truth to what you are saying, but it applies more for entry level DSLR/mirrorless cameras. My point was that for a "flagship" DSLR with APS-C, the size envy may well be a factor. A novice like yourself who has a thorough understanding of differences and capabilities of various sensor sizes, obviously this may or may not be a factor. Another point that I was trying to make was that if the price points are similar between two sensor formats, and if you are not shooting birds all the time, then I would entertain the thought of going to a larger sensor for their advantages ie low light performance, crop factors, stuff like that. The debate as to which sensor sizes are "better," or the degree of difference that one may or may not see between sensor sizes are utterly rhetorical to me, much like the debate regarding OVF vs EVF, or CMOS vs CCD. Speaking of which - I still shamelessly hang on to my 645D and the rendition of CCD sensor aside, in certain situation I reach for my D to make a full use of larger sensor capability too. I am not proposing that bigger sensors are better or visa versa. I was pondering about market psychology and strategy because price point of K-new was being discussed on this thread.

[Kunzite]

I think there is lots of truth to what you are saying, but it applies more for entry level DSLR/mirrorless cameras. My point was that for a "flagship" DSLR with APS-C, the size envy may well be a factor. A novice like yourself who has a thorough understanding of differences and capabilities of various sensor sizes, obviously this may or may not be a factor. Another point that I was trying to make was that if the price points are similar between two sensor formats, and if you are not shooting birds all the time, then I would entertain the thought of going to a larger sensor for their advantages ie low light performance, crop factors, stuff like that. The debate as to which sensor sizes are "better," or the degree of difference that one may or may not see between sensor sizes are utterly rhetorical to me, much like the debate regarding OVF vs EVF, or CMOS vs CCD. Speaking of which - I still shamelessly hang on to my 645D and the rendition of CCD sensor aside, in certain situation I reach for my D to make a full use of larger sensor capability too. I am not proposing that bigger sensors are better or visa versa. I was pondering about market psychology and strategy because price point of K-new was being discussed on this thread.

It doesn't work like this - unless you fall into some marketing trap.
Cameras are tools, and an APS-C flagship has certain advantages over a similarly priced FF. Even more so with DSLRs, where making large, fast yet well dampened mirrors is difficult.

The K-new will absolutely demolish the K-1 in terms of performance. The K-new vs. the next FF... we'll have to see their specs and prices, but I'm sure it won't be an one sided victory.

[gatorguy]

I think there is lots of truth to what you are saying, but it applies more for entry level DSLR/mirrorless cameras. My point was that for a "flagship" DSLR with APS-C, the size envy may well be a factor. A novice like yourself who has a thorough understanding of differences and capabilities of various sensor sizes, obviously this may or may not be a factor. Another point that I was trying to make was that if the price points are similar between two sensor formats, and if you are not shooting birds all the time, then I would entertain the thought of going to a larger sensor for their advantages ie low light performance, crop factors, stuff like that.

In fairness a lot of pros and prosumers seem very happy in the Fuji APS-C segment and not clamoring for FF.

[ThorSanchez]

I think there is lots of truth to what you are saying, but it applies more for entry level DSLR/mirrorless cameras. My point was that for a "flagship" DSLR with APS-C, the size envy may well be a factor. A novice like yourself who has a thorough understanding of differences and capabilities of various sensor sizes, obviously this may or may not be a factor. Another point that I was trying to make was that if the price points are similar between two sensor formats, and if you are not shooting birds all the time, then I would entertain the thought of going to a larger sensor for their advantages ie low light performance, crop factors, stuff like that. The debate as to which sensor sizes are "better," or the degree of difference that one may or may not see between sensor sizes are utterly rhetorical to me, much like the debate regarding OVF vs EVF, or CMOS vs CCD. Speaking of which - I still shamelessly hang on to my 645D and the rendition of CCD sensor aside, in certain situation I reach for my D to make a full use of larger sensor capability too. I am not proposing that bigger sensors are better or visa versa. I was pondering about market psychology and strategy because price point of K-new was being discussed on this thread.

I'm sure there's some truth to the idea that some people will buy the biggest thing they can afford, on the general assumption that bigger and more expensive is always better. See: the prevalence of people commuting by themselves to their suburban office park in 3-ton SUVs that seat 11, and coming home each night to their 7-bedroom McMansion for their 3-person family. That's not me, but those people exist. I'm not sure they're a significant factor among Pentaxians, but I could be wrong.

[Fontan]

It doesn't work like this - unless you fall into some marketing trap.
Cameras are tools, and an APS-C flagship has certain advantages over a similarly priced FF. Even more so with DSLRs, where making large, fast yet well dampened mirrors is difficult.

The K-new will absolutely demolish the K-1 in terms of performance. The K-new vs. the next FF... we'll have to see their specs and prices, but I'm sure it won't be an one sided victory.

People (not you perhaps) do fall into market traps, which are everywhere like landmines. If Norm can be convinced to buy K-1, then traps are at times effective. Differences in picture qualities are minuscule as I have said. I would love to see blind testings being conducted. People are pressed to find the difference between K-3 II output and that of K-1. At best its subjective. Heck - under wrong conditions K10D output can fool you. Yet, we as consumers continue to buy new gears - that is because the traps work. Some traps are better than the other. One aspect of Canon Nikon Sony's success is that people fall into traps. You may not - but that doesn't mean that others don't either. That is why marketing continues to exist. I have no idea if K-new willl demolish K-1. I am not sure what that means, actually. K-1 output often do not demolish that of K3 II. Me personally I would rather to put my money on lenses that bodies. I just think it's a bad investment. That being said, I could see if you are an APS-C shooter K-new may appear really attractive. I am sure it is a heck of a camera.

---------- Post added 07-16-20 at 05:00 AM ----------

In fairness a lot of pros and prosumers seem very happy in the Fuji APS-C segment and not clamoring for FF.

Yup I wholeheartedly agree with that. I have friends who moved from Leica to Fuji and are so pissed that the Fuji performs disproportionately well considering the price. I have never shot Fuji extensively at all, but I love the output. I think they put out excellent products. But - still, I imagine their market share is no more than say 5%? I say the marketing scheme is winning.

---------- Post added 07-16-20 at 05:02 AM ----------

I'm sure there's some truth to the idea that some people will buy the biggest thing they can afford, on the general assumption that bigger and more expensive is always better. See: the prevalence of people commuting by themselves to their suburban office park in 3-ton SUVs that seat 11, and coming home each night to their 7-bedroom McMansion for their 3-person family. That's not me, but those people exist. I'm not sure they're a significant factor among Pentaxians, but I could be wrong.

I think you are probably right that Pentaxian in general, judging from many posts I read here, are a group of very rational and sensible consumers. That may well be the reason why Pentax appear to suck at marketing or that they don't appear to put much emphasis on marketing because it just may not make that much of a difference. Maybe and maybe that the only reason they put FF out was because we bugged them so much on this forum. I would like to think of myself as someone like you, who don't get swayed by sizes and gimmicks, but I cannot say that I am. Temptations are too strong, and I am weak. I am a sucker. I got sucked in 645D, and now Leica. I am guilty and guilty again over and over.

[MMVIII]

People (not you perhaps) do fall into market traps, which are everywhere like landmines. If Norm can be convinced to buy K-1, then traps are at times effective. Differences in picture qualities are minuscule as I have said. I would love to see blind testings being conducted. People are pressed to find the difference between K-3 II output and that of K-1. At best its subjective. Heck - under wrong conditions K10D output can fool you. Yet, we as consumers continue to buy new gears - that is because the traps work. Some traps are better than the other. One aspect of Canon Nikon Sony's success is that people fall into traps. You may not - but that doesn't mean that others don't either. That is why marketing continues to exist. I have no idea if K-new willl demolish K-1. I am not sure what that means, actually. K-1 output often do not demolish that of K3 II. Me personally I would rather to put my money on lenses that bodies. I just think it's a bad investment. That being said, I could see if you are an APS-C shooter K-new may appear really attractive. I am sure it is a heck of a camera.

While I agree with many parts, I would like to emphasize another perspective. You can always take images with the larger sensor that are visually indiscernible from the smaller sensor. But you will not always be able to reproduce the output of the bigger format on the smaller one. It's about the less regular areas of photography. Go to high ISO and the differences will start to be visible. Go to fully opened fast lenses and you will see the limits of the crop sensor. Go for heavy cropping and you might have less possibilities in one format.
It's the broadness of the range of situations you can cover that you define with the size of the sensor you choose. As with everything, for most usecases the solid mid class (let's say APS-C) will suit you very well, probably indiscernible in the ootput. You pay for the additional cases, and here everyone has to conduct a personal needs analysis and decide if these are more dominant or even essential for one's shooting style.