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03-27-2021, 04:25 PM   #1111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
My main point was and still stands ... 10+ months of nothing for the 21mm (... just like it's been over SEVEN & a HALF YEARS since the release of the K-3, without any major update since then.)
I'm not disagreeing with you, but if a camera developed a few years ago does the job, we don't need a replacement.

My KP has wonderful high ISO performance, and I don't need a bigger buffer, a bigger battery, and I have never had a top LCD.
Apparently the K-3iii is better, but purchasers will need to collect interest for another month.

03-27-2021, 05:31 PM   #1112
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
There are already working prototypes of the DFA21 around, so suggesting it is "years away" seems almost maliciously pessimistic.
Actually, I would regard it as more like mild optimism.

There were working prototypes of the 09 Telephoto Macro around, but rather than even "years away", Ricoh's answer to the question of when it will appear is "Never!"

A lost opportunity to bring convenient depth of field to the macro domain.
03-27-2021, 06:25 PM   #1113
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
There were working prototypes of the 09 Telephoto Macro around
I don't recall it being handled and discussed in official Pentax videos....

QuoteQuote:
A lost opportunity to bring convenient depth of field to the macro domain.
Try putting the DA 35/2.8 Macro Limited on a Q body. You might find it does the job quite nicely.
03-27-2021, 07:09 PM - 1 Like   #1114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Starpacer Quote
Something like this, printed at say 30x40 inches, only using 100MP instead of 36. Shot with K1 and Laowa 12mm. I like spending time post-processing and like printing large... maybe my needs are different than most. Sorry for the trouble folks. I'll try not to disparage the brand in this forum!
Using Enhance AI in Camera Raw, I can, if I so desire, print a 32"x49" print at 300DPI.
I'm not sure if 100MP is really all that much of a big deal with that particular tool available.

---------- Post added Mar 27th, 2021 at 08:13 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Actually, I would regard it as more like mild optimism.

There were working prototypes of the 09 Telephoto Macro around, but rather than even "years away", Ricoh's answer to the question of when it will appear is "Never!"

A lost opportunity to bring convenient depth of field to the macro domain.
I don't think the Q mount is quite the same thing as the K mount, unless you are saying Ricoh is going to drop the K mount the same way they dropped the revenue sucking Q series that was foisted on them by Hoya..

03-27-2021, 08:44 PM - 9 Likes   #1115
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Last May Ricoh showed four products in their video.
- The DFA* 85mm - Scheduled for 2020 and released in 2020
- The K-3 III - Scheduled for 2020 but delayed to 2021. Ricoh recognized this failure with a number of corrections and apologies, but it seems to be close to release
- The DA* 16-50 PLM - Scheduled for early 2021. Working prototype and image samples shown at CP+. Seems more or less on schedule.
- The DFA 21mm Limited - Scheduled for 2021. Nothing mentioned at CP+ 2021 but no mention of delay.

However, I don't think Ricoh being silent about the 21mm at CP+ is cause for concern. They used CP+ to release updates 31/33/77mm Limiteds, so talking about a related future product would be a distraction from the main message at the moment, which is "pre-order the revised 31/43/77". It's just not a favorable time to start hyping up the 21mm yet.

The lack of talk about the K-1 III is basically the same principle. Ricoh is not going to let on about its development of a new model, because they are still selling the K-1 II. Of course they are planning one internally, but it would be counter-productive to talk about it. If you are ask them it will just be "studying" or "under consideration" for now, with some vague stuff about commitment to both APS-C and full frame DSLRs systems.

In the last few years, I've noticed that Ricoh is quite disciplined in their marketing message at CP+. They clearly go in with one or two key messages they are trying to get across and deemphasize the rest. This time it was the K-3 III and the HD Limited refresh, with a bit of keeping the GR ball rolling.

Last edited by JPT; 03-27-2021 at 09:30 PM.
03-28-2021, 12:00 AM   #1116
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
This is a nice image, but I don't see why it's given to back up a claim that Pentax is lagging behind so far, that some pictures are unobtainable with their equipment.
True, and I guess I didn't explain my point very well. What I'm saying is that if I want to continue making images like this one (which I'd gladly compare to anything from a Sony/Nikon/Canon), at some point there's going to be a need to upgrade my camera to higher resolution, a need to upgrade to the very sharpest lenses (which I'm assuming the D FA 21mm will be - someday)... You can say that 36MP is "all you need", and that the m20 is a great lens, but if the rest of the world is shooting with 100MP cameras and lenses designed in the 2020's, then your images WILL be noticeably inferior (in large prints, etc). I'm just getting this bad feeling that Pentax is getting further and further behind and doesn't seem to be inclined to keep up. I understand the argument that they've really chosen a niche that focuses on lightweight APS-C cameras, light lenses, etc - and I'll always use my APS-C Pentax cameras for hiking and a lot of travel... But if I want absolutely the best image quality possible, I'm not sure I can stick with Pentax, as much as I want to...
03-28-2021, 12:11 AM   #1117
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm not disagreeing with you, but if a camera developed a few years ago does the job, we don't need a replacement.
“We” being the rational group of people who aren’t being persuaded to buy something new just to keep the manufacturer’s shareholders and employees happy, I presume. “They” are the group who may do so, and “they” want something new and attention-getting, which Ricoh is not catering to, in the main, at the rate they require.

Also, in the main, “they” are younger and with greater disposable income than a fair proportion of the “we”.

Having said all of that, I’m one of the “we” who’s happy to be persuaded, in the case of the K-3iii, that part of my retiree disposable income will be parted with for a satisfying improvement over my K-3. I’m not wholly persuaded, yet, mind.

03-28-2021, 12:25 AM   #1118
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
However, I don't think Ricoh being silent about the 21mm at CP+ is cause for concern. They used CP+ to release updates 31/33/77mm Limiteds, so talking about a related future product would be a distraction from the main message at the moment, which is "pre-order the revised 31/43/77". It's just not a favorable time to start hyping up the 21mm yet.
A good point, and I hope you're right...
03-28-2021, 12:34 AM   #1119
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Maybe you should consider that Ricoh Imaging is only a star lens producer, that are not competing with stars' pace, but trying to fix it from a terrestrial perspective.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 03-28-2021 at 12:40 AM.
03-28-2021, 01:58 AM - 1 Like   #1120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Whatever ... You said "0" which is true. Unfortunate.
It's equally true for Canon, Nikon and Olympus (it's OMD now).

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
And really, the AKM fire has nothing to do with the lack of Pentax R&D and new product development. That's an easy excuse, like saying "the dog ate my homework".
Now, that's complete nonsense. There's the K-3iii, there's the DA* 16-50 PLM, the D FA 21 Limited - that's only what we were told about. I'd like to see more, but to say "lack of" as if they're doing nothing... that's complete nonsense.
And having a Beagle, "the dog ate my homework" is a valid excuse.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
And you have got to be kidding for Canon and Nikon ... "ZERO"s ... really.
It's a fact.

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
Yes. I am being very, very harsh on Ricoh/Pentax management. As we all should be ... to get them of their dead butts.
At the same time, I bet you wouldn't want people to be as unreasonable with you like you are with Ricoh/Pentax management.
What you're doing, the effect would be zero in the best case, possibly negative. It's just venting after all. The carrot works - the stick doesn't.

Last edited by Sandy Hancock; 03-28-2021 at 04:20 AM.
03-28-2021, 02:06 AM - 1 Like   #1121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Starpacer Quote
True, and I guess I didn't explain my point very well. What I'm saying is that if I want to continue making images like this one (which I'd gladly compare to anything from a Sony/Nikon/Canon), at some point there's going to be a need to upgrade my camera to higher resolution, a need to upgrade to the very sharpest lenses (which I'm assuming the D FA 21mm will be - someday)... You can say that 36MP is "all you need", and that the m20 is a great lens, but if the rest of the world is shooting with 100MP cameras and lenses designed in the 2020's, then your images WILL be noticeably inferior (in large prints, etc). I'm just getting this bad feeling that Pentax is getting further and further behind and doesn't seem to be inclined to keep up. I understand the argument that they've really chosen a niche that focuses on lightweight APS-C cameras, light lenses, etc - and I'll always use my APS-C Pentax cameras for hiking and a lot of travel... But if I want absolutely the best image quality possible, I'm not sure I can stick with Pentax, as much as I want to...
Out of curiosity, just how large do you print?
03-28-2021, 02:35 AM - 2 Likes   #1122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Starpacer Quote
True, and I guess I didn't explain my point very well. What I'm saying is that if I want to continue making images like this one (which I'd gladly compare to anything from a Sony/Nikon/Canon), at some point there's going to be a need to upgrade my camera to higher resolution, a need to upgrade to the very sharpest lenses (which I'm assuming the D FA 21mm will be - someday)... You can say that 36MP is "all you need", and that the m20 is a great lens, but if the rest of the world is shooting with 100MP cameras and lenses designed in the 2020's, then your images WILL be noticeably inferior (in large prints, etc). I'm just getting this bad feeling that Pentax is getting further and further behind and doesn't seem to be inclined to keep up. I understand the argument that they've really chosen a niche that focuses on lightweight APS-C cameras, light lenses, etc - and I'll always use my APS-C Pentax cameras for hiking and a lot of travel... But if I want absolutely the best image quality possible, I'm not sure I can stick with Pentax, as much as I want to...
It is funny because more people seem interested in low megapixel (24) cameras on the Forum than are interested with a 100 megapixel beast. After a certain point, higher megapixels doesn't really get you better images if you keep the sensor size the same. You are better using pixel shift, taking multiple photos and stitching, or some such thing.

Beyond which, a 100 megapixel full frame camera is going to be diffraction limited to f4.

I don't care if Pentax bumps up megapixels into the 40 to 60 range, but I really hope they don't go crazy with all of these things. And no, I don't think "the rest of the world" is shooting with 100 megapixel cameras -- or will be in a couple of years for that matter.
03-28-2021, 02:56 AM - 1 Like   #1123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Starpacer Quote
True, and I guess I didn't explain my point very well. What I'm saying is that if I want to continue making images like this one (which I'd gladly compare to anything from a Sony/Nikon/Canon), at some point there's going to be a need to upgrade my camera to higher resolution, a need to upgrade to the very sharpest lenses (which I'm assuming the D FA 21mm will be - someday)... You can say that 36MP is "all you need", and that the m20 is a great lens, but if the rest of the world is shooting with 100MP cameras and lenses designed in the 2020's, then your images WILL be noticeably inferior (in large prints, etc). I'm just getting this bad feeling that Pentax is getting further and further behind and doesn't seem to be inclined to keep up. I understand the argument that they've really chosen a niche that focuses on lightweight APS-C cameras, light lenses, etc - and I'll always use my APS-C Pentax cameras for hiking and a lot of travel... But if I want absolutely the best image quality possible, I'm not sure I can stick with Pentax, as much as I want to...
If you need 100mp, then your only option is MF. And Fuji will happily take your money. If Ricoh continue the Pentax 645 line, then that will no doubt hit that number too. But I doubt it will be soon/ever.

At a bold guess, the next K-1 will use whatever sensor the current Sony a7 has.
03-28-2021, 02:56 AM   #1124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's equally true for Canon, Nikon and Olympus (it's OMD now). ...

At the same time, I bet you wouldn't want people to be as unreasonable with you like you are with Ricoh/Pentax management.What you're doing, the effect would be zero in the best case, possibly negative. It's just venting after all. The carrot works - the stick doesn't.
We could not disagree more here ... being a demanding consumer of a brand that you cherish is not being unreasonable.

As for your "0" for Canon and Nikon, here's a DPR page containing some of the new items from Canon, Nikon & company ... Reviews and previews: Digital Photography Review

Example:
- Canon R5 & R6
- Nikon Z7ii, Z6ii & Z5
- Panasonic - Lumix DC-S5
- plus Leica & Zeiss offerings

So, chalk up a "big fat zero" for them as of late ... and please know that none of these cameras are sitting in the display cases and my local B&M photo shop.
03-28-2021, 03:00 AM - 1 Like   #1125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is funny because more people seem interested in low megapixel (24) cameras on the Forum than are interested with a 100 megapixel beast. After a certain point, higher megapixels doesn't really get you better images if you keep the sensor size the same. You are better using pixel shift, taking multiple photos and stitching, or some such thing.

Beyond which, a 100 megapixel full frame camera is going to be diffraction limited to f4.

I don't care if Pentax bumps up megapixels into the 40 to 60 range, but I really hope they don't go crazy with all of these things. And no, I don't think "the rest of the world" is shooting with 100 megapixel cameras -- or will be in a couple of years for that matter.
Agreed. Frankly, without going to medium format I don't see much improvement in higher MP counts. The A7R4 doesn't get much more detail than the K-1 in the images I've seen (although I am fairly sure Pentax will squeeze a touch more out of the same sensor, with less or no OSPDAF strips).

The only option is a monochrome sensor - the 47 MP Leica B/Whatever *oozes* detail, but... well, it has obvious limitations

---------- Post added 03-28-21 at 03:05 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Jean Poitiers Quote
We could not disagree more here ... being a demanding consumer of a brand that you cherish is not being unreasonable.

As for your "0" for Canon and Nikon, here's a DPR page containing some of the new items from Canon, Nikon & company ... Reviews and previews: Digital Photography Review

Example:
- Canon R5 & R6
- Nikon Z7ii, Z6ii & Z5
- Panasonic - Lumix DC-S5
- plus Leica & Zeiss offerings

So, chalk up a "big fat zero" for them as of late ... and please know that none of these cameras are sitting in the display cases and my local B&M photo shop.
You mean the ones that were planned for much earlier than the K-3iii (the Rs were announced for spring 2020), therefore unaffected by the factory fire?

Ah, no, they are affected - more than half a year of delivery time for some early adopters. People can't buy the cameras because Canikon are also plagued by production issues.

I like how you count the R5 and R6 but conveniently ignore the DFA* 85 which is from the same time frame. At least be consistent

Last edited by Serkevan; 03-28-2021 at 03:07 AM.
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