D FA 21 Limited is one of the three.

**jatrax** · 08-03-2021, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by Jonathan Mac

though I'm not a FF user and therefore not a prospective customer for this new lens, I like to keep up-to-date on the lineup.

- No reason this would not be an excellent lens on APS-C as well. It will be interesting to see a comparison between the DA 21mm Limited and this new 21mm

- No real new info though hints say this fall. Which has some logic as the DA*16-50 is no shipping so perhaps now Ricoh will turn it's attention to this one

**ThorSanchez** · 08-03-2021, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by jatrax

- No reason this would not be an excellent lens on APS-C as well. It will be interesting to see a comparison between the DA 21mm Limited and this new 21mm.

I have no doubt it'll be a great lens on APS-C, but the current DA21mm LTD is a very good lens, can be had new for less than $500 and used for half that. And it's smaller and lighter. The new one is going to have to be out of the world good to be a real option for APS-C users who don't have massive piles of cash lying around their house, as it will probably be over $1000.

Also for APS-C the 20-40 LTD exists, is about the same size as the new 21mm, solves the lack of WR of the DA21mm LTD, and is $500 new.

**TwoUptons** · 08-03-2021, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by ThorSanchez

I have no doubt it'll be a great lens on APS-C, but the current DA21mm LTD is a very good lens, can be had new for less than $500 and used for half that. And it's smaller and lighter. The new one is going to have to be out of the world good to be a real option for APS-C users who don't have massive piles of cash lying around their house, as it will probably be over $1000.

Also for APS-C the 20-40 LTD exists, is about the same size as the new 21mm, solves the lack of WR of the DA21mm LTD, and is $500 new.

Based on the rumored aperture, you'll likely get somewhere between a third-stop and a full stop more light with the DFA Limited... that's not much...
While I expect it to be good, I think you're right... it won't convert many APS-C shooters to trade in their DA21s... or their 20-40s... (which is also an awesome lens on APS-C)
And I do expect the price to be about $1,000, at least to start... and I don't expect it will drop as quickly as lenses have in the past.

-Eric

thibs · 08-04-2021, 12:56 AM

And don't understand.
The DFA21 has never been there to replace the DA21.

Why the disappointment?

Ishpuini · 08-04-2021, 01:10 AM

I was actually considering the DFA21 to replace my DA21 on APS-C. Mainly because the DA21 (much like the SDM DA*16-50/2.8 actually) doesn't seem up to the higher MP APS-C bodies of latter years, contrary to the FA limiteds that are still fine. This was confirmed during a recent outing with the DA21, which resulted in images that really disappointed me in terms of IQ. The other two in the bag that day, the M28/2.8 and the FA43, did so much better. Could be my copy though.

BTW, the widest aperture on the spec sheet is one thing, the widest aperture that gives a nice focus transition is another. f/3.2 on the DA21 was always lacking in that respect IMHO, and I expect the DFA21 to be better at that at least, regardless of whether it is f/2.8, f/2 or anything more exotic and FA limited style.

**Rondec** · 08-04-2021, 02:31 AM - **2 Likes**

I think the main reasons why APS-C users might get the DFA 21 are:

1. They don't just shoot APS-C. There are plenty of folks (like me) who not only use APS-C but also own a K-1 or K-1 II.

2. They want to future proof their purchases. Maybe they currently own a KP but in the back of their mind they think they might go with a full frame camera in the future and hence would prefer to buy lenses that can work for both size sensors.

3. The corners are better with the DFA 21. One thing we know about full frame lenses on APS-C is that their borders and corners tend to do better -- mainly because they are cropped away. The DA 21 and DA 20-40 do benefit from being stopped down. I wouldn't be surprised if the DFA 21 has better corners at similar apertures on APS-C than these lenses, because it is designed for full frame.

Maybe these aren't good enough reasons to purchase it, but it is the ones I can think of.

**ehrwien** · 08-04-2021, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by Ishpuini

Mainly because the DA21 (much like the SDM DA*16-50/2.8 actually) doesn't seem up to the higher MP APS-C bodies of latter years, contrary to the FA limiteds that are still fine. This was confirmed during a recent outing with the DA21, which resulted in images that really disappointed me in terms of IQ. The other two in the bag that day, the M28/2.8 and the FA43, did so much better. Could be my copy though.

Perhaps. Have you tried converting the pictures with a software that has lens correction profiles for the 21? DxO PhotoLab does have one for it, and especially in terms of sharpness this makes quite a difference.

One3rdEV · 08-04-2021, 06:56 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I think the main reasons why APS-C users might get the DFA 21 are:

1. They don't just shoot APS-C. There are plenty of folks (like me) who not only use APS-C but also own a K-1 or K-1 II.

2. They want to future proof their purchases. Maybe they currently own a KP but in the back of their mind they think they might go with a full frame camera in the future and hence would prefer to buy lenses that can work for both size sensors.

3. The corners are better with the DFA 21. One thing we know about full frame lenses on APS-C is that their borders and corners tend to do better -- mainly because they are cropped away. The DA 21 and DA 20-40 do benefit from being stopped down. I wouldn't be surprised if the DFA 21 has better corners at similar apertures on APS-C than these lenses, because it is designed for full frame.

Maybe these aren't good enough reasons to purchase it, but it is the ones I can think of.

With the additional benefit that a focal length of 21mm (or 24mm) capable to cover FF full frame format usage- will still result in a wide angle field of view when used on APS-C crop. Where as a (28mm) 31mm or 35mm does not.

reh321 · 08-04-2021, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by One3rdEV

With the additional benefit that a focal length of 21mm (or 24mm) capable to cover FF full frame format usage- will still result in a wide angle field of view when used on APS-C crop. Where as a (28mm) 31mm or 35mm does not.

On my KP, the DFA 21mm Ltd lens should give me exactly the same view that a DA 21 Ltd lens does - or my DA 20-40mm Ltd lens does when set to 21mm.
The corners may be different because I would be using only part of the lens, and the weight would differ - I think these are the points Rondec and others are making.

Ishpuini · 08-04-2021, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by ehrwien

Perhaps. Have you tried converting the pictures with a software that has lens correction profiles for the 21? DxO PhotoLab does have one for it, and especially in terms of sharpness this makes quite a difference.

Only Adobe Lightroom, but that generally does a decent job.

**Rondec** · 08-04-2021, 07:43 AM

Originally posted by One3rdEV

With the additional benefit that a focal length of 21mm (or 24mm) capable to cover FF full frame format usage- will still result in a wide angle field of view when used on APS-C crop. Where as a (28mm) 31mm or 35mm does not.

21mm is 21mm. The DA 21 doesn't cover full frame, so you can't use it on a K-1 without cropping, but if you're shooting on a K3 or KP, you wouldn't notice a difference with regard to angle of view as compared the DFA 21.

Obviously a wider angle of view could be a plus for some -- it could also be a negative, depending on what focal length you are looking for. I'm not sure if being 21mm is a feature or not -- it just is -- for me, having a 20-ish mm lens that is smaller than my DFA 15-30 that covers full frame is what I'm looking for.

One3rdEV · 08-04-2021, 10:27 AM

Hmmm. Not sure why the internet so often prompts counter-arguments to most every post given?

I was just agreeing with Rondec's comments regarding the pending DFA 21mm Limited being designed for full frame coverage as the primary reason for its existence and likely to be the primary driver of its desirability for sales (K1 owners & APS-C owners protecting for future FF use (in which bucket I happen to fit, btw)). Also agree with the points made earlier that APS-C will likely have some benefit in more consistent corner / edge performance due to the crop factor.

And I agree that with the obvious that as a prime lens the smaller physical packaging relative to a zoom will be the other primary driver for desirability for full frame format users. An of course that same packaging size will far exceed that of the DA 21mm for those APS-C only users making less desirable. And of course a DA 21mm is not really even an option for providing complete full frame coverage.

Oh- and yes... I totally agree that 21mm will always be 21mm, 31mm will always be 31mm, and 35mm will always be 35mm optical field of lens view. But that doesn't mean they project the same image framing for a given lens to subject distance on different sensor size formats at the same registration distance.

So the point I was trying to ADD is that... given Pentax's present lens catalog, and limited to lenses with designed capability to cover full frame format- the wide angle prime lens options are:

- FA 31mm Limited -or- FA 35mm F2 ... both of which on APS-C = essentially considered a 'normal' field of view.

The pending DFA 21mm Limited... will not only open the option for an ultra wide prime in full frame, but will also for the first time provide a full frame prime lens capable to perform the role of a moderate 'wide angle' on APS-C.

Naturally any offering in the product catalog is merely an option for the consumer to make best-fit personal choices from.

For an individual such as myself already having full frame capable lenses of just the FA 43mm & FA 77mm:
- FA 31mm Limited or FA 35mm F2 => FF: wide, wide-normal, short telephoto // APS-C: normal, normal-tele, medium telephoto)
- FA 21mm Limited => FF: ultra-wide, wide-normal, short telephoto // APS-C: wide, normal-tele, medium telephoto

For some users the benefit of increased separation between the wide angle lens and FA 43mm Limited may be notably attractive (albeit expensive).

cfraz · 08-04-2021, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by ehrwien

Perhaps. Have you tried converting the pictures with a software that has lens correction profiles for the 21? DxO PhotoLab does have one for it, and especially in terms of sharpness this makes quite a difference.

Interesting. Just curious how a lens correction profile can improve sharpness.

Ishpuini · 08-05-2021, 02:42 AM

Originally posted by cfraz

Interesting. Just curious how a lens correction profile can improve sharpness.

I guess it's a mixed bag, depending on the distortion of the lens. The distortion correction process would result in some areas of the image being slightly stretched and others slightly compressed. The latter could improve the perception of sharpness in that area. The former, however, will result in some additional blur in the affected areas. Next to that, removing colour aberrations that are especially visible on the edges of subjects, would probably increase perception of edge sharpness and improve contrasty texture?
Hence I can see a profile can improve things, though I think it would be limited to subtle changes only... A blurry lens will never become razor sharp thanks to a profile. At least I have never seen this... My DA21/3.2 in any case doesn't noticeably improve after application of the Lightroom lens profile.

Jonathan Mac · 08-05-2021, 03:49 AM

Originally posted by ThorSanchez

I have no doubt it'll be a great lens on APS-C, but the current DA21mm LTD is a very good lens, can be had new for less than $500 and used for half that. And it's smaller and lighter. The new one is going to have to be out of the world good to be a real option for APS-C users who don't have massive piles of cash lying around their house, as it will probably be over $1000.

Also for APS-C the 20-40 LTD exists, is about the same size as the new 21mm, solves the lack of WR of the DA21mm LTD, and is $500 new.

Good summary.

Just to clarify, for the reasons above I'm not considering buying a DFA 21mm, I already have the DA 21mm and 20-40mm. I just want to keep abreast of things.

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08-03-2021, 09:17 AM	#1696
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by Jonathan Mac though I'm not a FF user and therefore not a prospective customer for this new lens, I like to keep up-to-date on the lineup. - No reason this would not be an excellent lens on APS-C as well. It will be interesting to see a comparison between the DA 21mm Limited and this new 21mm - No real new info though hints say this fall. Which has some logic as the DA*16-50 is no shipping so perhaps now Ricoh will turn it's attention to this one

08-03-2021, 10:56 AM	#1697
ThorSanchez Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,804	Originally posted by jatrax - No reason this would not be an excellent lens on APS-C as well. It will be interesting to see a comparison between the DA 21mm Limited and this new 21mm. I have no doubt it'll be a great lens on APS-C, but the current DA21mm LTD is a very good lens, can be had new for less than $500 and used for half that. And it's smaller and lighter. The new one is going to have to be out of the world good to be a real option for APS-C users who don't have massive piles of cash lying around their house, as it will probably be over $1000. Also for APS-C the 20-40 LTD exists, is about the same size as the new 21mm, solves the lack of WR of the DA21mm LTD, and is $500 new.

08-03-2021, 05:36 PM	#1698
TwoUptons Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2015 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,207	Originally posted by ThorSanchez I have no doubt it'll be a great lens on APS-C, but the current DA21mm LTD is a very good lens, can be had new for less than $500 and used for half that. And it's smaller and lighter. The new one is going to have to be out of the world good to be a real option for APS-C users who don't have massive piles of cash lying around their house, as it will probably be over $1000. Also for APS-C the 20-40 LTD exists, is about the same size as the new 21mm, solves the lack of WR of the DA21mm LTD, and is $500 new. Based on the rumored aperture, you'll likely get somewhere between a third-stop and a full stop more light with the DFA Limited... that's not much... While I expect it to be good, I think you're right... it won't convert many APS-C shooters to trade in their DA21s... or their 20-40s... (which is also an awesome lens on APS-C) And I do expect the price to be about $1,000, at least to start... and I don't expect it will drop as quickly as lenses have in the past. -Eric

08-04-2021, 12:56 AM	#1699
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	And don't understand. The DFA21 has never been there to replace the DA21. Why the disappointment?

08-04-2021, 01:10 AM	#1700
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	I was actually considering the DFA21 to replace my DA21 on APS-C. Mainly because the DA21 (much like the SDM DA*16-50/2.8 actually) doesn't seem up to the higher MP APS-C bodies of latter years, contrary to the FA limiteds that are still fine. This was confirmed during a recent outing with the DA21, which resulted in images that really disappointed me in terms of IQ. The other two in the bag that day, the M28/2.8 and the FA43, did so much better. Could be my copy though. BTW, the widest aperture on the spec sheet is one thing, the widest aperture that gives a nice focus transition is another. f/3.2 on the DA21 was always lacking in that respect IMHO, and I expect the DFA21 to be better at that at least, regardless of whether it is f/2.8, f/2 or anything more exotic and FA limited style.

08-04-2021, 02:31 AM - 2 Likes	#1701
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	I think the main reasons why APS-C users might get the DFA 21 are: 1. They don't just shoot APS-C. There are plenty of folks (like me) who not only use APS-C but also own a K-1 or K-1 II. 2. They want to future proof their purchases. Maybe they currently own a KP but in the back of their mind they think they might go with a full frame camera in the future and hence would prefer to buy lenses that can work for both size sensors. 3. The corners are better with the DFA 21. One thing we know about full frame lenses on APS-C is that their borders and corners tend to do better -- mainly because they are cropped away. The DA 21 and DA 20-40 do benefit from being stopped down. I wouldn't be surprised if the DFA 21 has better corners at similar apertures on APS-C than these lenses, because it is designed for full frame. Maybe these aren't good enough reasons to purchase it, but it is the ones I can think of.

08-04-2021, 06:33 AM	#1702
ehrwien Site Supporter Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 2,780	Originally posted by Ishpuini Mainly because the DA21 (much like the SDM DA16-50/2.8 actually) doesn't seem up to the higher MP APS-C bodies of latter years, contrary to the FA limiteds that are still fine. This was confirmed during a recent outing with the DA21, which resulted in images that really disappointed me in terms of IQ. The other two in the bag that day, the M28/2.8 and the FA43, did so much better. Could be my copy though.* Perhaps. Have you tried converting the pictures with a software that has lens correction profiles for the 21? DxO PhotoLab does have one for it, and especially in terms of sharpness this makes quite a difference.

08-04-2021, 06:56 AM	#1703
One3rdEV Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: So-central, MI Posts: 285	Originally posted by Rondec I think the main reasons why APS-C users might get the DFA 21 are: 1. They don't just shoot APS-C. There are plenty of folks (like me) who not only use APS-C but also own a K-1 or K-1 II. 2. They want to future proof their purchases. Maybe they currently own a KP but in the back of their mind they think they might go with a full frame camera in the future and hence would prefer to buy lenses that can work for both size sensors. 3. The corners are better with the DFA 21. One thing we know about full frame lenses on APS-C is that their borders and corners tend to do better -- mainly because they are cropped away. The DA 21 and DA 20-40 do benefit from being stopped down. I wouldn't be surprised if the DFA 21 has better corners at similar apertures on APS-C than these lenses, because it is designed for full frame. Maybe these aren't good enough reasons to purchase it, but it is the ones I can think of. With the additional benefit that a focal length of 21mm (or 24mm) capable to cover FF full frame format usage- will still result in a wide angle field of view when used on APS-C crop. Where as a (28mm) 31mm or 35mm does not.

08-04-2021, 07:18 AM	#1704
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,175	Originally posted by One3rdEV With the additional benefit that a focal length of 21mm (or 24mm) capable to cover FF full frame format usage- will still result in a wide angle field of view when used on APS-C crop. Where as a (28mm) 31mm or 35mm does not. On my KP, the DFA 21mm Ltd lens should give me exactly the same view that a DA 21 Ltd lens does - or my DA 20-40mm Ltd lens does when set to 21mm. The corners may be different because I would be using only part of the lens, and the weight would differ - I think these are the points Rondec and others are making.

08-04-2021, 07:24 AM	#1705
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	Originally posted by ehrwien Perhaps. Have you tried converting the pictures with a software that has lens correction profiles for the 21? DxO PhotoLab does have one for it, and especially in terms of sharpness this makes quite a difference. Only Adobe Lightroom, but that generally does a decent job.

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08-04-2021, 07:43 AM	#1706
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	Originally posted by One3rdEV With the additional benefit that a focal length of 21mm (or 24mm) capable to cover FF full frame format usage- will still result in a wide angle field of view when used on APS-C crop. Where as a (28mm) 31mm or 35mm does not. 21mm is 21mm. The DA 21 doesn't cover full frame, so you can't use it on a K-1 without cropping, but if you're shooting on a K3 or KP, you wouldn't notice a difference with regard to angle of view as compared the DFA 21. Obviously a wider angle of view could be a plus for some -- it could also be a negative, depending on what focal length you are looking for. I'm not sure if being 21mm is a feature or not -- it just is -- for me, having a 20-ish mm lens that is smaller than my DFA 15-30 that covers full frame is what I'm looking for.

08-04-2021, 10:27 AM	#1707
One3rdEV Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: So-central, MI Posts: 285	Hmmm. Not sure why the internet so often prompts counter-arguments to most every post given? I was just agreeing with Rondec's comments regarding the pending DFA 21mm Limited being designed for full frame coverage as the primary reason for its existence and likely to be the primary driver of its desirability for sales (K1 owners & APS-C owners protecting for future FF use (in which bucket I happen to fit, btw)). Also agree with the points made earlier that APS-C will likely have some benefit in more consistent corner / edge performance due to the crop factor. And I agree that with the obvious that as a prime lens the smaller physical packaging relative to a zoom will be the other primary driver for desirability for full frame format users. An of course that same packaging size will far exceed that of the DA 21mm for those APS-C only users making less desirable. And of course a DA 21mm is not really even an option for providing complete full frame coverage. Oh- and yes... I totally agree that 21mm will always be 21mm, 31mm will always be 31mm, and 35mm will always be 35mm optical field of lens view. But that doesn't mean they project the same image framing for a given lens to subject distance on different sensor size formats at the same registration distance. So the point I was trying to ADD is that... given Pentax's present lens catalog, and limited to lenses with designed capability to cover full frame format- the wide angle prime lens options are: - FA 31mm Limited -or- FA 35mm F2 ... both of which on APS-C = essentially considered a 'normal' field of view. The pending DFA 21mm Limited... will not only open the option for an ultra wide prime in full frame, but will also for the first time provide a full frame prime lens capable to perform the role of a moderate 'wide angle' on APS-C. Naturally any offering in the product catalog is merely an option for the consumer to make best-fit personal choices from. For an individual such as myself already having full frame capable lenses of just the FA 43mm & FA 77mm: - FA 31mm Limited or FA 35mm F2 => FF: wide, wide-normal, short telephoto // APS-C: normal, normal-tele, medium telephoto) - FA 21mm Limited => FF: ultra-wide, wide-normal, short telephoto // APS-C: wide, normal-tele, medium telephoto For some users the benefit of increased separation between the wide angle lens and FA 43mm Limited may be notably attractive (albeit expensive).

08-04-2021, 11:03 AM	#1708
cfraz Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 521	Originally posted by ehrwien Perhaps. Have you tried converting the pictures with a software that has lens correction profiles for the 21? DxO PhotoLab does have one for it, and especially in terms of sharpness this makes quite a difference. Interesting. Just curious how a lens correction profile can improve sharpness.

08-05-2021, 02:42 AM	#1709
Ishpuini Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Antwerp, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,727	Originally posted by cfraz Interesting. Just curious how a lens correction profile can improve sharpness. I guess it's a mixed bag, depending on the distortion of the lens. The distortion correction process would result in some areas of the image being slightly stretched and others slightly compressed. The latter could improve the perception of sharpness in that area. The former, however, will result in some additional blur in the affected areas. Next to that, removing colour aberrations that are especially visible on the edges of subjects, would probably increase perception of edge sharpness and improve contrasty texture? Hence I can see a profile can improve things, though I think it would be limited to subtle changes only... A blurry lens will never become razor sharp thanks to a profile. At least I have never seen this... My DA21/3.2 in any case doesn't noticeably improve after application of the Lightroom lens profile.

08-05-2021, 03:49 AM	#1710
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,887	Originally posted by ThorSanchez I have no doubt it'll be a great lens on APS-C, but the current DA21mm LTD is a very good lens, can be had new for less than $500 and used for half that. And it's smaller and lighter. The new one is going to have to be out of the world good to be a real option for APS-C users who don't have massive piles of cash lying around their house, as it will probably be over $1000. Also for APS-C the 20-40 LTD exists, is about the same size as the new 21mm, solves the lack of WR of the DA21mm LTD, and is $500 new. Good summary. Just to clarify, for the reasons above I'm not considering buying a DFA 21mm, I already have the DA 21mm and 20-40mm. I just want to keep abreast of things.