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05-15-2020, 10:22 AM - 1 Like   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
That's what I'm pointing out when I say that a "flagship" camera should cover the needs of as many different users as possible.
This is almost directly opposite to my thinking. Expert tools tend to have sharper edges and be more difficult to handle for beginners. It's not true for all things but very often expert gear makes life difficult for beginners and allow experts to excel. Only an unfocused beginner needs features for all conceivable scenarios. The expert needs a tool that does one job well. A streamlined simple tool that takes time to master but delivers in the right hands.

This is why I argue for Pentax to become more focused and it's also why I very much like the direction of the K-new (though I'm not the target for a "dynamic" camera). I've always been impressed by the GR line in this respect and it seems Ricoh is doing the same to Pentax products. Very good news indeed.

05-15-2020, 10:29 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcleary47 Quote
What are you even talking about here? Not sure what your point is. So let me get this straight, someone who is a competent photographer, can only be so if they stick to their old system for what? 10, 15, 20 years? Give me a break. T
I know lots of competent photographers who do so. You give me a break.
But since you can't read, and you proved that in the first paragraph of your post I'm not reading the rest.

But as for the first paragraph, I didn't say anything about competent photographers (strike one) I was referring to the average camera purchaser, I didn't say anything about "brave" you invented that (strike two) , I never said anything about never switching. (Strike 3).

Sorry, more straw man arguments than I can deal with.

Bosicletoed.

Last edited by normhead; 05-15-2020 at 10:43 AM.
05-15-2020, 10:29 AM - 4 Likes   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcleary47 Quote
Here's the thing though, Pentax absolutely has to innovate or at least start playing catch up.
QuoteOriginally posted by jcleary47 Quote
If you have a user who's use case is shooting fast action in addition to portraits and landscapes, why would they choose Pentax when the auto-focus is completely blown away by the competition?
I think I understand your viewpoint. However, in the context of the presentation video and this thread, I think that judgements on the innovation and performance of the upcoming APS-C camera are premature. We need to wait and see what the production version brings.

The video covered several aspects of the new camera, but only in a cursory manner. At least the 1.05x magnification seems to be an innovation for APS-C optical viewfinders.

- Craig
05-15-2020, 10:31 AM - 2 Likes   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by c.a.m Quote
In the context of the presentation video and this thread, I think that judgements on the innovation and performance of the upcoming APS-C camera are premature. We need to wait and see what the production version brings.
Craig, how dare you bring sensible thoughts into this thread!

05-15-2020, 10:37 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcleary47 Quote
It's perfectly fine and normal for those invested heavily into the Pentax ecosystem to be excited for whatever the K-New camera is.

Here's the thing though, Pentax absolutely has to innovate or at least start playing catch up.

No matter what you are using, any modern day body with high quality glass is going to produce great, high quality images. So the difference comes down to the other factors. If you have a user who's use case is shooting fast action in addition to portraits and landscapes, why would they choose Pentax when the auto-focus is completely blown away by the competition? Many more people are vlogging and creating video content, and just recording video in general these days. Why should they buy into the Pentax ecosystem and have to carry around a second dedicated device for video when they could have it all in one package?

These are legitimate questions - questions that are absolutely fair to ask of a company producing products that we have bought, and want to continue to buy. But if we want products to be developed well into the future, these shortcomings need to be addressed. The writing is on the wall. Do you not want the Pentax community to grow?

I've used my Pentax system, I've rented bodies and lenses from just about every other system out there. I'm sorry but all things being equal the image quality is excellent no matter what you choose. So then you have to decide, well which ecosystem has the best quality of life improvements and continues to innovate? What is going to make my job easier? Again, these are fair questions, and clearly questions consumers are asking.

I'm not trying to knock Pentax - I know it probably seems that way - but not everyone is content with buying a body and using it for 10 years and being satisfied. Just as it is your prerogative to do that, it is other folks prerogative to look for the shiny new thing that has quality of life improvements and technology that makes their photography experience either easier or more fun. Neither side should be judged, but understood.
That's what I'm wondering.


If you were looking for a sport crop with all the features, not attached to any brand, why wouldn't you buy a D500 instead? That is to say, the wheel has already been 'invented' and it is likely available for less (gently used) than this will cost, with a lot more support out the gate.

But I think this is just selling to people who are locked in with K mount. Outside of that horrible flipscreen decision, it does look like an upgrade over the K-3 series already in just looking at the viewfinder update and the joystick.


That said, the updated *16-50mm was more interesting to me. It could be something special.
05-15-2020, 10:38 AM - 4 Likes   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by zzeitg Quote
Seconded. I rarely ever use it. Next topic is video. I NEVER use it.

That's why I'm glad that I bought DA560 and regret that I didn't buy Sigma 500 f/4.5 at the right time. I hate to say it but tele seems to be no priority for Ricoh/Pentax anymore.
I sold the K3II and DA560 and now shoot the Nikon Z7 with the 500PF. I went there by detour with a Canon 7DII, but found out that when you have used a Sony sensored Pentax or Nikon, then there is no way back.
The Z7+500PF is a truly magnificent combo, but I still miss the DA560 for its sheer imaging power over distance in all types of light. Put a 1.4tc on the f5.6 500PF and the magic wanes. The DA560 bare has great IQ i.m.o. if you are willing to accept that the CA at 100% can be ugly and off-putting, but prints and viewing sized images are up there with the best. My only (major) gripe was the inconsisent AF with the K3/K3II, and with such a lens you really want dependable and spot-on AF. The Canon 7DII had the best single shot AF I've experienced, as good as the Nikon D500, and much better when using tc's. Even with the 2.0tc it was dead accurate.

So when the new aps-c flagship comes, I will see how it is, and perhaps re-buy the DA560. There simply is no replacement in other brands, and I have come to dislike extenders. My first hope is a Nikon 600PF f5.6, for which Nikon has a patent, but if that does not come due to the rise of mirrroless, for which a whole horde of other lenses will first have to be made, then I may repurchase the DA560. I hope that the new aps-c K flagship has the type of rendering from the K3/K3II, finely detailed and not overly smooth as the KP was when I had it.
05-15-2020, 10:43 AM - 2 Likes   #67
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"Originally posted by Serkevan

Yes, I'm aware that what I'm saying would apply to entry-level cameras more than a flagship, but the quality of life things can make or break a system. Luckily, Pentax is basically at the top of the pack in important things, even if AF could use some "marketable" improvements.

*When it even exists - several people who are into photography didn't know that Pentax makes DSLRs, much less good ones. I basically considered the brand as an option because my brain had imprinted on the Espio 115G my parents used when I was a child, but if I had listened to any of my friends, or asked at a store, I would be using Canon or Nikon."
________________________________________________________________

Although I was aware of Pentax because of Honeywell, my film SLRs were all Nikon, so I was pre-disposed to buy Nikon when I went digital. However, when I bought my first Pentax, a *ist DS - all it took was handling the Nikon D50 & D70, than the Canon Rebel, than finally the *ist DS to choose Pentax over the other two. The ergonomics & build quality to me were that much better!
05-15-2020, 10:46 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
I sold the K3II and DA560 and now shoot the Nikon Z7 with the 500PF. I went there by detour with a Canon 7DII, but found out that when you have used a Sony sensored Pentax or Nikon, then there is no way back.
The Z7+500PF is a truly magnificent combo, but I still miss the DA560 for its sheer imaging power over distance in all types of light. Put a 1.4TC on the f5.6 500PF and the magic wanes. The DA560 bare has great IQ i.m.o. if you are willing to accept that the CA at 100% can be ugly and off-putting, but prints and viewing sized images are up there with the best. My only (major) gripe was the inconsisent AF with the K3/K3II, and with such a lens you really want dependable and spot-on AF. The Canon 7DII had the best single shot AF I've experienced, as good as the Nikon D500, and much better when using tc's. Even with the 2.0TC it was dead accurate.
So when the new aps-c flagship comes, I will see how it is, and perhaps re-buy the DA560. There simply is no replacement in other brands, and I have come to dislike extenders. My first hope is a Nikon 600PF f5.6, for which Nikon has a patent, but if that does not come due to the rise of mirrroless, for which a whole horde of other lenses will first have to be made, then I may repurchase the DA560. I hope that the new aps-c K flagship has the type of rendering from the K3/K3II, finely detailed and not overly smooth as the KP was when I had it.
True the Dynamic Range and malleability of RAWs out of a sony sensored' camera is indeed spoiling.


I'm sure there will be improved crop Z bodies sooner than later too. The Z 50 was more a consumer entry stepping point into deeper waters.



Either way, we have lots of options.

05-15-2020, 10:50 AM - 1 Like   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcleary47 Quote
The criticisms of Pentax AF compared to other platforms isn't anecdotal and it's not conjecture. It's reality. Sure, people can shoot action just fine on Pentax. But there's easier, faster, better systems out there for doing the same thing. That ends up being a huge user experience issue. I've shot using Sony's AF system, and it's cheat mode in comparison. Nikon and Canon haven't even caught up to Sony's Eye-AF. These three are so far ahead, maybe everyone is right - there's no point in Pentax trying to catch up. Which is fine - for some.
The point is not whether Pentax AF is worse. It's whether it's worse enough that the average photographer needs to spend a noticeable amount of effort/time to get satisfactory results. In my case, it doesn't hold me back: Canikony might make your life easier, but just the other day I spent a couple minutes taking photos of a friend with the K-1 and FA 77. I didn't need time to set up or anything, I just pointed, shot, and grabbed a dozen pretty pictures, all of them focused well enough to survive A4 or A3 enlargement. That's good enough for me, and Sony Eye-AF and 20 fps would just give me a hundred duplicates I would trash. Again, for -my- needs.

Entry level cameras are another story, and that's where I see Sony's eye-AF making it truly easier for novices.

---------- Post added 05-15-20 at 10:52 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BryantCP Quote
Although I was aware of Pentax because of Honeywell, my film SLRs were all Nikon, so I was pre-disposed to buy Nikon when I went digital. However, when I bought my first Pentax, a *ist DS - all it took was handling the Nikon D50 & D70, than the Canon Rebel, than finally the *ist DS to choose Pentax over the other two. The ergonomics & build quality to me were that much better!
And therein lies the problem! People in my experience either go with online reviews (so... canikony ) or hand feel, where Pentax is second to none or would be if they had them in a store to actually try. In this half-a-million city, I have seen one K-70 in a total of 5 different stores.
05-15-2020, 10:53 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
I sold the K3II and DA560 and now shoot the Nikon Z7 with the 500PF. I went there by detour with a Canon 7DII, but found out that when you have used a Sony sensored Pentax or Nikon, then there is no way back.
The Z7+500PF is a truly magnificent combo, but I still miss the DA560 for its sheer imaging power over distance in all types of light. Put a 1.4tc on the f5.6 500PF and the magic wanes. The DA560 bare has great IQ i.m.o. if you are willing to accept that the CA at 100% can be ugly and off-putting, but prints and viewing sized images are up there with the best. My only (major) gripe was the inconsisent AF with the K3/K3II, and with such a lens you really want dependable and spot-on AF. The Canon 7DII had the best single shot AF I've experienced, as good as the Nikon D500, and much better when using tc's. Even with the 2.0tc it was dead accurate.

So when the new aps-c flagship comes, I will see how it is, and perhaps re-buy the DA560. There simply is no replacement in other brands, and I have come to dislike extenders. My first hope is a Nikon 600PF f5.6, for which Nikon has a patent, but if that does not come due to the rise of mirrroless, for which a whole horde of other lenses will first have to be made, then I may repurchase the DA560. I hope that the new aps-c K flagship has the type of rendering from the K3/K3II, finely detailed and not overly smooth as the KP was when I had it.
But aren't you thrilled with the relatively petite 500PF vs the monstrous DA560?
05-15-2020, 10:57 AM - 2 Likes   #71
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Well, it seems that they really are listening wishes from field, when it comeback to new 16-50 and that DFA21. They have reworked AF system(yet remains to be seen how) and corrected one thing for FF guys with aps-c cameras. One of reasons I went from K-3 to K-1. OVF. It is something to not be over looked. They really want to give enjoyment of using OVF, so that might be one of reasons to go with out flippy screen. I bought blackmagic 4K to get that video thing covered. Sometimes I hope for flippy thing, especially when that screen on that BMPCC is so amazing and big. But them again, when I have used my K-1 flippy thing, time to time I hope it was bigger. It is great, but you have to use it in 100% magn. To be able to see what is in and what is not. Those are the moment when photography changes to something else. Yes, convinient, especially with macro, but one can live without. Or buy field monitor

Really liked the fact that they have been working a lotwith that joystick and this will be in future top end cameras too. That is one good thing more. Really looking forward of seeing where this goes. Not sure if this one is for me, But that big OVF is Making it more plausible. There are great lenses coming up and new it seems really tempting with that new 16-50. Let is see where they will get that PLM fitted next.
05-15-2020, 11:08 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
Well, it seems that they really are listening wishes from field, when it comeback to new 16-50 and that DFA21. They have reworked AF system(yet remains to be seen how) and corrected one thing for FF guys with aps-c cameras. One of reasons I went from K-3 to K-1. OVF. It is something to not be over looked. They really want to give enjoyment of using OVF, so that might be one of reasons to go with out flippy screen. I bought blackmagic 4K to get that video thing covered. Sometimes I hope for flippy thing, especially when that screen on that BMPCC is so amazing and big. But them again, when I have used my K-1 flippy thing, time to time I hope it was bigger. It is great, but you have to use it in 100% magn. To be able to see what is in and what is not. Those are the moment when photography changes to something else. Yes, convinient, especially with macro, but one can live without. Or buy field monitor

Really liked the fact that they have been working a lotwith that joystick and this will be in future top end cameras too. That is one good thing more. Really looking forward of seeing where this goes. Not sure if this one is for me, But that big OVF is Making it more plausible. There are great lenses coming up and new it seems really tempting with that new 16-50. Let is see where they will get that PLM fitted next.
I agree with all you say except it seems the flip screen was indeed super useful for low ground shots (or high above head shots) in framing. The viewfinder isn't going to be used in those scenarios and buying (and lugging) a field monitor seems like a laughable work around.
05-15-2020, 11:16 AM - 1 Like   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I agree with all you say except it seems the flip screen was indeed super useful for low ground shots (or high above head shots) in framing. The viewfinder isn't going to be used in those scenarios and buying (and lugging) a field monitor seems like a laughable work around.
I agree with mee for once, if the final version has no tiltable screen, I'll be waiting for the K-newII and hoping it has one. I was using the K-3 for outdoor macro yesterday, what a royal pain in the butt.
05-15-2020, 11:16 AM   #74
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They really make a point of saying optical viewfinder a number of times. Itís possible that is some polite signalling that there is no hybrid viewfinder. Iím just looking for an update on my nearly 7 year old K-3 so either way Iím probably the target audience. When actually capturing images the viewfinder has the biggest impact on my experience. I use a 4x5 field camera a Rolleiflex TLR and use the Fujica ST701 that has 0.96x magnification. I look forward to the new cameras viewfinder either way. Oh and on the bad viewfinder side of things I also have some of the worst. The Lubitel 2 and the Olympus Pen F come to mind.
05-15-2020, 11:18 AM - 2 Likes   #75
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Flip screens are essentially standard on cameras now beyond specialist gear and really tiny stuff. I've found the KP's flip screen to be incredibly useful and I actually prefer this format to the fully articulating screen on my Panasonic G85. Well, not for video, I guess, but for stills.

I honestly wouldn't buy a camera in 2020 without a flip screen. Not trying to offend anyone with a different opinion, but it makes so many things so much easier. Waist level shots of my kids is the biggest thing, but it makes everything easier.
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