[Serkevan]

Not sure what sort of shape Pentax is in. Ricoh is not saying - not even a footnote mentioning Pentax by name in their latest annual report.

Ricoh Imaging is alright and that's what matters in this case - although it's the GRiii and Theta being the breadwinners.

[Zygonyx]

Hello wasp, we are waiting for Q4 results i guess.
In the meantime read this and be happy :

Ricoh's financial results for Q3: improved Smart Vision's earnings - PentaxForums.com

[clackers]

In somewhat related news, Canon and Nikon are not in good shape:

Canon: Imaging Profits Down 80% in Q1, But the Worst is Yet to Come

Nikon Releases Brutal Financial Report, Lays Off 700 in Southeast Asia

Not sure what sort of shape Pentax is in. Ricoh is not saying - not even a footnote mentioning Pentax by name in their latest annual report.

See Zygonx's post, with its link. Last year, Ricoh was about the only camera company to increase its revenue.

Canon, Nikon and Sony, who all went to mirrorless after making DSLRs, were smashed in revenue.

What are we supposed to learn from them?

[Mistral75]

Hello wasp, we are waiting for Q4 results i guess.
In the meantime read this and be happy :

Ricoh's financial results for Q3: improved Smart Vision's earnings - PentaxForums.com

Ricoh's FY2019 and FY2019/Q4 results were published on the 8th of May. Not a single word concerning Pentax. Ricoh Imaging / Smart Vision are more and more focused (no pun intended ) on Ricoh Theta (in particular its BtoB uses, including the real estate market) and GR.

Here below a few quotes from the various documents:

Other
This segment encompasses (...) the Smart Vision business, which is expanding its customer base by drawing on our strengths in capturing and image processing technologies to supply optical devices, primarily for the real estate sector. In Smart Vision, we launched the THETA 360.biz official partner program. Our application for virtual property tours has expanded business applications for our 360° camera, and has been very well received.

Improved Smart Vision business earnings on favorable GR and THETA (sales units(*1) 1.2 times)

(*1) YoY unit sales change for THETA series and GR series

(which is an odd way of stating that they sold 20% more Theta and GR cameras during FY2019 than during FY2018)

Q4 Overview

• Smart Vision: While camera sales were down owing to COVID-19, earnings improved; demand remained solid for RICOH THETA・GR

Real Estate

• Need: Experience a property without going on-site
• Value proposition: Provide remote property viewings by digitalizing 360 degree images of rooms using THETA
• Product/Services: Virtual Tour Services

[pres589]

See Zygonx's post, with its link. Last year, Ricoh was about the only camera company to increase its revenue.

Canon, Nikon and Sony, who all went to mirrorless after making DSLRs, were smashed in revenue.

What are we supposed to learn from them?

This seems like a probable correlation vs causation issue. The change here isn't so much SLR vs. mirrorless, to me, as older tech vs. newer tech AND (perhaps more importantly) a mount change. But there's also changing consumer tastes coupled with extremely prevalent smartphones. It's like if everyone had a 110 format camera in their pocket all the time and Pentax did their m42 to k-mount transition all over again. Obviously 110 isn't so great as a real 35mm SLR but if nearly 100% of your market was "already carrying a camera in their pocket"... see what I'm saying?


I'm not good enough at reading tea leaves to tell where this goes and what the camera market as a whole looks like a decade or so from now. I wouldn't base it solely on how 2019 sent for CaNiSo financially.

[clackers]

The change here isn't so much SLR vs. mirrorless, to me, as older tech vs. newer tech AND (perhaps more importantly) a mount change.

It'd be a stretch to say that mount change affected Sony in 2019.

E mount came in 2010 to progressively replace the A-mount pellicle system.

As you say, the millions of dollars invested by Canon and Nikon in mirrorless to replace their DSLRs in some sort of belief that they will arrest the move to phone photography has not saved them, in fact brought them closer to financial failure.

Olympus have only had mirrorless in the last decade, they've just pulled out of the South Korea market and globally maybe their cameras haven't returned a profit in years. Samsung thought, build mirrorless, customers will come - very expensive mistake that killed their camera business. Fuji is perhaps propped up by their Instax products (which are a fad, like hula hoops), and Panasonic doesn't seem to be attractive to anyone but a proportion of the videographer market, small as it is.

Perhaps Pentax is aiming to be a Japanese Leica. That's bad news for people who like cheap and cheerful products rather than premium ones, but it seems like the only sensible strategy in a crashing industry. Pursuing marketshare is like a race to the bottom ... it would be a disaster.

[RobA_Oz]

Fuji is perhaps propped up by their Instax products (which are a trend, like hula hoops), and Panasonic doesn't seem to be attractive to anyone but a proportion of the videographer market, small as it is.

Did hula hoops ever go away? Some trends have a habit of sticking – I walked in to JB Hifi for the first time in a while, the other day, and I was astounded to see that the vinyl trend seems to be growing, considerably. Anyway, you and I both know that comparisons like these are fraught.

Perhaps Pentax is aiming to be a Japanese Leica. That's bad news for people who like cheap and cheerful products rather than premium ones, but it seems like the only sensible strategy in a crashing industry. Pursuing marketshare is like a race to the bottom ... it would be a disaster.

I doubt they’re ever going to be cheap and cheerful, at least not the way Hoya was presenting them as they went through their asset-stripping exercise. They will, though, keep their APS-C range as the cheaper (perhaps, “less expensive”) line, while the other two formats push into the Leica-like premium market segment. That segment will keep buying, regardless of what us in the hoi polloi might be suffering.

If other lens-makers stay or go with the K-mount, it’s clearly of no importance to Ricoh. Samyang have demonstrated that they don’t much care, either.

[Serkevan]

This seems like a probable correlation vs causation issue. The change here isn't so much SLR vs. mirrorless, to me, as older tech vs. newer tech AND (perhaps more importantly) a mount change. But there's also changing consumer tastes coupled with extremely prevalent smartphones. It's like if everyone had a 110 format camera in their pocket all the time and Pentax did their m42 to k-mount transition all over again. Obviously 110 isn't so great as a real 35mm SLR but if nearly 100% of your market was "already carrying a camera in their pocket"... see what I'm saying?


I'm not good enough at reading tea leaves to tell where this goes and what the camera market as a whole looks like a decade or so from now. I wouldn't base it solely on how 2019 sent for CaNiSo financially.

Another thing is that for the vast majority of users who want to make photos worth looking at (so not the DPR average commenter for sure ), there is barely any improvement to be had when upgrading from a 2012 Nikon 5X00 to a 2020 whatever mirrorless thing. Nil, zilch, nada. Basically the same pictures. Something about ISO 6400 being marginally better. Contrast and compare the 2008-2012 (give or take) years, when usable ISO and MP both went up dramatically, with models leapfrogging each other in succession. There was some reason to upgrading every couple years... but that was bound to stop. And it did. How camera companies didn't realize that the "upgrade bodies once a year" rhythm wasn't sustainable, I don't know.


Banking on entry-level, bridge cameras and compacts for mass revenue also turned out to be a terrible idea. SLRs weren't the most common film cameras back in the 90s, small 135-film point and shoots were. Those got replaced by small digital compacts, but image quality of the early ones was bad, so as soon as DSLRs were affordable, people jumped on the cheapo Canikons because... it was the cheapest way to make decent pictures, not because of any interest in having a camera. Cue the smartphone with better IQ than old compacts, and now we're back to the olden days of ILCs being for enthusiasts/wealthy amateurs/people making money out of photography. The problem this time is that the industry bloated itself into a huge size when things were good, and we all know that the mention of the word "downsizing" will cause shareholders a collective aneurysm.

Pentax, however, has been living in a smaller scale for a while. They are probably better prepared for such a situation.

[Fenwoodian]

A Pentax branded camera deserves a Pentax branded lens!

Well that's news to me. I guess I should immediately sell all off the many Zeiss, Leica and Nikkor lenses I've adapted to K mount because my Pentax K-1 cameras "deserve Pentax lenses".

[clackers]

I doubt they’re ever going to be cheap and cheerful

Well, that's bad news for a lot of forum members, who will not be able to justify a thousand dollar plus K-new!

[btnapa]

A pity Nikon 7xxx and lower have such crap UI IMO.

That is the only thing I hold against Nikon the crappy UI. Again, it is something one can get used to. Sony seems to have taken the crown from Nikon in that department! I never liked the original Sony A7's feel nor did I like its UI. The newer Sonys have improved in feel but the UI is stuck in the old days. Again, one can get used to even a crappy UI!

---------- Post added 05-31-20 at 09:09 PM ----------

Not sure what sort of shape Pentax is in. Ricoh is not saying - not even a footnote mentioning Pentax by name in their latest annual report.

If Pentax is a loss leader for Ricoh, then the numbers do not matter. The profits can be zero and Ricoh will still keep the brand alive for PR purposes. I am happy as Long as they keep Pentax alive. And I will do my part by buying the gear. Pentax is the last brand on the planet I want to see die.

[pres589]

It'd be a stretch to say that mount change affected Sony in 2019.

E mount came in 2010 to progressively replace the A-mount pellicle system.

As you say, the millions of dollars invested by Canon and Nikon in mirrorless to replace their DSLRs in some sort of belief that they will arrest the move to phone photography has not saved them, in fact brought them closer to financial failure.

Olympus have only had mirrorless in the last decade, they've just pulled out of the South Korea market and globally maybe their cameras haven't returned a profit in years. Samsung thought, build mirrorless, customers will come - very expensive mistake that killed their camera business. Fuji is perhaps propped up by their Instax products (which are a trend, like hula hoops), and Panasonic doesn't seem to be attractive to anyone but a proportion of the videographer market, small as it is.

Perhaps Pentax is aiming to be a Japanese Leica. That's bad news for people who like cheap and cheerful products rather than premium ones, but it seems like the only sensible strategy in a crashing industry. Pursuing marketshare is like a race to the bottom ... it would be a disaster.

I really don't understand what Panasonic is hoping to achieve or how they hope to be seen by customers. I think they and Oly both made a mistake going m4/3 instead of APS-C or APS-H.


It's too bad that Samsung didn't stick things out with Pentax to have a k-mount alliance like the L-mount group. That was sort of before my time as my first real camera was the Pentax K100D and I didn't know / wasn't paying attention to what Hoya was up to and how that all played out. Maybe that wasn't an option available to the company. Who knows.

[clackers]

I really don't understand what Panasonic is hoping to achieve or how they hope to be seen by customers. I think they and Oly both made a mistake going m4/3 instead of APS-C or APS-H.


It's too bad that Samsung didn't stick things out with Pentax to have a k-mount alliance like the L-mount group. That was sort of before my time as my first real camera was the Pentax K100D and I didn't know / wasn't paying attention to what Hoya was up to and how that all played out. Maybe that wasn't an option available to the company. Who knows.

Worse, Panasonic have entered late into the full frame field, with the L alliance. There's no evidence they'll ever get their money back, it could just hasten their demise.

Of course, their FF MILC is torn by compromise. They have acknowledged that to make focus as good as DSLRs, MILC companies now rob pixels from the sensor and dedicate them to PDAF, so that an algorithm has to recreate the lost data - banding and other artifacts arise when the guessing is done wrong.

So their product, like all the Pannys, is CDAF only. It's like shooting everything in Live View. Terrible.

[MMVIII]

Another thing is that for the vast majority of users who want to make photos worth looking at (so not the DPR average commenter for sure ), there is barely any improvement to be had when upgrading from a 2012 Nikon 5X00 to a 2020 whatever mirrorless thing. Nil, zilch, nada. Basically the same pictures. Something about ISO 6400 being marginally better. Contrast and compare the 2008-2012 (give or take) years, when usable ISO and MP both went up dramatically, with models leapfrogging each other in succession. There was some reason to upgrading every couple years... but that was bound to stop. And it did. How camera companies didn't realize that the "upgrade bodies once a year" rhythm wasn't sustainable, I don't know.


Banking on entry-level, bridge cameras and compacts for mass revenue also turned out to be a terrible idea. SLRs weren't the most common film cameras back in the 90s, small 135-film point and shoots were. Those got replaced by small digital compacts, but image quality of the early ones was bad, so as soon as DSLRs were affordable, people jumped on the cheapo Canikons because... it was the cheapest way to make decent pictures, not because of any interest in having a camera. Cue the smartphone with better IQ than old compacts, and now we're back to the olden days of ILCs being for enthusiasts/wealthy amateurs/people making money out of photography. The problem this time is that the industry bloated itself into a huge size when things were good, and we all know that the mention of the word "downsizing" will cause shareholders a collective aneurysm.

Pentax, however, has been living in a smaller scale for a while. They are probably better prepared for such a situation.

I agree. In regard to Pentax we can only speculate, but this might be the case.
On a sidenote, isn't it noteworthy to think about the impact of a crisis on some economies if people for some weeks do buy only things they need? There is a lot bloated and what commercials (and sites like dpr are not much more then vehicles for that) want you to think you need and what is really needed might be two different things (in this exemplary section of the market)

[Mistral75]

Well, that's bad news for a lot of forum members, who will not be able to justify a thousand dollar plus K-new!

Be happy if the KNEW is less than $1,999 (USD).