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12-08-2008, 11:53 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
So APSC will go away when they bring out a FF camera? Dont think so. Checked out the price of Nikon DX lenses and Canon EFS? The Tamron is a very second rate lens that cant even do justice to a *istD. I care about photography and I assure you I would rather have a 50-135 F2.8 on a K20D than the Tamron on a D3.

Sorry but I think your whole premise is rediculous. Most so called FF lenses perform like crap on FF, especially the consumer lenses. Just look around the forums on DPReview. You are wasting your time and money.
Yes, I have checked the prices of DX/FX lenses. I actually maintain a spreadsheet of all current prices. But you are talking about current prices; I am talking about the not so distant future when FF will no longer be just a toy for the rich or for pros.

Also, who said I wanted a D3? Not me. I said I couldn't justify spending over $1500 on a camera body as long as APS-C cameras such as the K20D/D90 were being produced. However, my personal belief is that "enthusiast" cameras such as those will be going FF in the future. Leaving APS-C for entry level bodies such as the Rebel and KM.

Consumer lenses such as the Tamron 70-300mm serve their purpose; even on full frame. This is a pic I took using it on the K10D:

Flickr Photo Download: Green Caterpillar

I'm sure if you pixel peep you can see all sorts of problems; and I don't care about any of them. IMO that lens is way underrated. Between 70-250mm it is every bit as sharp as the Pentax 55-300mm, plus it has a decent "macro" mode built in, all for a 1/3 the cost of the dedicated APS-C 55-300 Pentax. Photozone.de also states the build quality is better than the Canikon equivalents. The only real issue I know of is CA's; and even that hasn't been an issue for me so far. So why spend more? Is the 60-250mm f/4 a better lens? Absolutely. But it would also be a lens I pull out of my bag about 3 times a year. I can hardly justify that purchase.

Telephoto is just a toy for me, I rarely ever shoot anything I care about over 100mm. Since I decided on the 43mm limited and bought it earlier today does that mean I now care about photography too?

This is just a simple difference in opinion. You seem to think APS-C will stay here in its current form indefinitely; I do not. Why get in a tissy over my opinion? I've not once bashed APS-C. In-fact I've defended that format against some of the FF or nothing guys on here in the past, but that doesn't mean I think APS-C will continue to dominate the SLR market as it does now. The simple fact is every single person I know with an enthusiast level DSLR is only using APS-C for one reason...cost. Eventually sensor costs will bottom out at which point the cost difference between APS-C and 35mm will be minimal. Whether or not people need FF is a different argument all together and something that has been discussed to death.


Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 12-09-2008 at 12:01 AM.
12-09-2008, 01:19 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Yes, I have checked the prices of DX/FX lenses. I actually maintain a spreadsheet of all current prices. But you are talking about current prices; I am talking about the not so distant future when FF will no longer be just a toy for the rich or for pros.

Also, who said I wanted a D3? Not me. I said I couldn't justify spending over $1500 on a camera body as long as APS-C cameras such as the K20D/D90 were being produced. However, my personal belief is that "enthusiast" cameras such as those will be going FF in the future. Leaving APS-C for entry level bodies such as the Rebel and KM.

Consumer lenses such as the Tamron 70-300mm serve their purpose; even on full frame. This is a pic I took using it on the K10D:

Flickr Photo Download: Green Caterpillar

I'm sure if you pixel peep you can see all sorts of problems; and I don't care about any of them. IMO that lens is way underrated. Between 70-250mm it is every bit as sharp as the Pentax 55-300mm, plus it has a decent "macro" mode built in, all for a 1/3 the cost of the dedicated APS-C 55-300 Pentax. Photozone.de also states the build quality is better than the Canikon equivalents. The only real issue I know of is CA's; and even that hasn't been an issue for me so far. So why spend more? Is the 60-250mm f/4 a better lens? Absolutely. But it would also be a lens I pull out of my bag about 3 times a year. I can hardly justify that purchase.

Telephoto is just a toy for me, I rarely ever shoot anything I care about over 100mm. Since I decided on the 43mm limited and bought it earlier today does that mean I now care about photography too?

This is just a simple difference in opinion. You seem to think APS-C will stay here in its current form indefinitely; I do not. Why get in a tissy over my opinion? I've not once bashed APS-C. In-fact I've defended that format against some of the FF or nothing guys on here in the past, but that doesn't mean I think APS-C will continue to dominate the SLR market as it does now. The simple fact is every single person I know with an enthusiast level DSLR is only using APS-C for one reason...cost. Eventually sensor costs will bottom out at which point the cost difference between APS-C and 35mm will be minimal. Whether or not people need FF is a different argument all together and something that has been discussed to death.
I am not Steve, but I think the point steve was trying to make, or well two points, were:

1: That an excellent lens on a smaller format body is likely to perform better than a consumer lens on a larger format body.

- The D3 was as I read it used as an example of the above, not an indication of that you wanted one.

2: buy lenses for what you currently shoot.

- SOmething I agree with too, picking the best possible lens for the format I use is the best way to get top quality shots from a technical point of view.
12-09-2008, 04:25 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Duplo Quote
I am not Steve, but I think the point steve was trying to make, or well two points, were:

1: That an excellent lens on a smaller format body is likely to perform better than a consumer lens on a larger format body.

- The D3 was as I read it used as an example of the above, not an indication of that you wanted one.

2: buy lenses for what you currently shoot.

- SOmething I agree with too, picking the best possible lens for the format I use is the best way to get top quality shots from a technical point of view.
I can understand that point of view. However, IMO, in the digital world where every image is post processed using Lightroom and Photoshop I've found that there are virtually no problems that can't be corrected. The results may not be not be acceptable to some at 100%, but I don't look at photos that way.

In other words, I don't worry too much about resolution numbers. My only thought process when choosing a lens is will it do what I want now....and will it do what I want 5 years from now. I don't need or even want FF that much (aside from the larger view finder that comes with a FF body), I just like to prepare for what I feel is inevitable.

My most expensive lens is that $410 43mm Limited. And I only bought it because I wanted a moderate tele lens for portraits with shallow DOF. F/5.6-8 at 40mm is just fine on my kit DA 18-55mm.

Take a look at this cat:
Gallery Presentation - photo.net

A consumer Tamron lens would be a huge upgrade to what he is using. He shoots a $200 Canon A620 and he blows me away as well as 99% of most SLR users I see on Flickr. You gotta love photoshop.
12-09-2008, 05:12 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I can understand that point of view. However, IMO, in the digital world where every image is post processed using Lightroom and Photoshop I've found that there are virtually no problems that can't be corrected. The results may not be not be acceptable to some at 100%, but I don't look at photos that way.
Well I actually do not think that Steve does either.
As i do not.
I proof print in 20x30cm and has a standard output of 30x45cm or larger, at those sizes the combination of lens and body matters a lot and no amount of lightroom can make up for resolution not recorded.

So I guess it comes down to application.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
In other words, I don't worry too much about resolution numbers. My only thought process when choosing a lens is will it do what I want now....and will it do what I want 5 years from now. I don't need or even want FF that much (aside from the larger view finder that comes with a FF body), I just like to prepare for what I feel is inevitable.
fair enough, I cannot say I understand it or agrees though.
But it is your opinion and it can be as right for you as mine can for me.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
My most expensive lens is that $410 43mm Limited. And I only bought it because I wanted a moderate tele lens for portraits with shallow DOF. F/5.6-8 at 40mm is just fine on my kit DA 18-55mm.
The FA43 is a very fine lens and does better than any other pentax lens in its range IMHO. It will much prefer it at any aperture to the kit lens.

QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Take a look at this cat:
Gallery Presentation - photo.net

A consumer Tamron lens would be a huge upgrade to what he is using. He shoots a $200 Canon A620 and he blows me away as well as 99% of most SLR users I see on Flickr. You gotta love photoshop.
He got a very good eye and some excellent PP skills for sure.
But printed in A3 quality is going to suffer. you can only do soo much in photoshop.
But agreed the guy got quite a talent and some nice photos in his gallery.
regardless of gear the guy behind it matters most.
But again Application and preferences is what matters, the right gear for the right job though is important too.

12-09-2008, 05:18 PM   #140
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I don't think Photoshop can replace lens IQ. Underexposure, lighting issue, ca certainly, but I just don't see it lens quality. Otherwise, we'd all be using phone cameras.
12-09-2008, 06:22 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I don't think Photoshop can replace lens IQ. Underexposure, lighting issue, ca certainly, but I just don't see it lens quality. Otherwise, we'd all be using phone cameras.
Well yeah, I didn't mean taking it to that extreme. I just meant start with a decent foundation then go from there. I've spent roughly $1500 on all my gear. To the average person that is an insane amount. But I feel like thats a fair amount to spend for a setup that can do anything I want it to do and make prints all the way up to 20x30" without a problem. Then if I see distortion problems, or if I think the image needs more contrast or sharpness I can fix it in photoshop just fine. Assuming the photo is composed well and exposed properly that is.

This guy is one of my personal heroes:
Terry Richardson - Photo Slaves

One of the top pros in the world and uses nothing but P&S film cameras.

Last edited by Art Vandelay II; 12-09-2008 at 06:29 PM. Reason: reword
12-09-2008, 08:51 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by art vandelay ii Quote
well yeah, i didn't mean taking it to that extreme. I just meant start with a decent foundation then go from there. I've spent roughly $1500 on all my gear. To the average person that is an insane amount. But i feel like thats a fair amount to spend for a setup that can do anything i want it to do and make prints all the way up to 20x30" without a problem. Then if i see distortion problems, or if i think the image needs more contrast or sharpness i can fix it in photoshop just fine. Assuming the photo is composed well and exposed properly that is.

This guy is one of my personal heroes:
terry richardson - photo slaves

one of the top pros in the world and uses nothing but p&s film cameras.

holly cr@p! That dude caught pictures of models eating!!!!

12-10-2008, 03:19 AM   #143
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Not sure if this is old news but here it goes:

Pentax has the intention to release 3 DSLRs next year. I suppose this is something for pentaxians to get excited about in this tough time of global financial crisis

http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/investor/2009_2Q_meeting_summary.pdf

12-10-2008, 05:40 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by raider Quote
Not sure if this is old news but here it goes:

Pentax has the intention to release 3 DSLRs next year. I suppose this is something for pentaxians to get excited about in this tough time of global financial crisis

http://www.hoya.co.jp/english/investor/2009_2Q_meeting_summary.pdf
I'm not sure if you are reading that right. It says "Next year, we are planning to launch some three types, including minor design
change versions, of single-lens reflex (SLR) cameras."

I read that to mean they are planning to release three types of cameras and included in those will be MINOR changes in the DSLR models.
12-10-2008, 06:03 AM   #145
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Well, I must admit i did just take a quick glance at the document...so I went back and take another look.

"Next year, we are planning to launch some three types, including minor design
change versions, of single-lens reflex (SLR) cameras. With a desire to offer cameras
which will demonstrate our advantages, as announced in the Photokina held in
Germany, we will relaunch ourselves next year as a manufacturer of all-weather
cameras which are strong outdoors, highly water-resistnat, splash-proof, and dustproof, small and light, easily portable and tough (durable). "


Didn't they say they will release 3 types of DSLR, albeit they are minor changes and all?
12-10-2008, 06:41 AM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by raider Quote

Didn't they say they will release 3 types of DSLR, albeit they are minor changes and all?
That's not the way I'm reading it. At best I'm expecting a k20D Super and a K-M/K2000 super. When he says three I think he is referring to a couple of special P $ S weather/water sealed units.

Last edited by regken; 12-10-2008 at 06:48 AM.
12-10-2008, 07:52 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
That's not the way I'm reading it. At best I'm expecting a k20D Super and a K-M/K2000 super. When he says three I think he is referring to a couple of special P $ S weather/water sealed units.
Ken,

I am both sad and sorry to see you hang up on semantics and trying so hard to be on the negative side. I think that you're unfortunately so keen to be proven right when you said so many times that Pentax wouldn't rise above their second/third/whatever tier manufacturer status that you look only at doom and gloom these days. Moving over a translation made from Japanese most likely or the words spoken by a non-native English speaker let me tell you that you are VERY wrong. Pentax will release 3 DSLR models in 2009:

- very early in 2009 the "minor" changed model which was already leaked here;
- there will be no other "Super" models in the way you seem to think and contrary to your beliefs Hoya will change big time what Pentax means for most of us.
- the successors of both K200D and K20D NOT in a form of "Super" models with minor changes but as new cameras with significant upgrades compared to the one's they replace;
I don't ask you to believe me ... your mindset is pretty obvious and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to change that. But I kind of think that time will prove me right (again).

Regards,
Radu
12-10-2008, 08:08 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
That's not the way I'm reading it. At best I'm expecting a k20D Super and a K-M/K2000 super. When he says three I think he is referring to a couple of special P $ S weather/water sealed units.
3 DSLR means 3DSLR . . .

QuoteQuote:
Next year, we are planning to launch some three types, including minor design change versions, of single-lens reflex (SLR) cameras.
However, that is the plans . . . that could change. If everyone looks at the report regarding the Pentax division, they have already downsized by 200 people in Europe etc alone. They foresee a drop in everything but the eye and medical end of Pentax.

Last edited by Blue; 12-10-2008 at 08:15 AM.
12-10-2008, 08:23 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Ken,

I don't ask you to believe me ... your mindset is pretty obvious and I have no interest whatsoever in trying to change that. But I kind of think that time will prove me right (again).

Regards,
Radu
I don't understand those of you that think I'm negative towards Pentax or that I am doom and gloom about their future. Granted my opinion of Pentax US marketing is right down there with whale crap but I am very optimistic about Pentax surviving as a good niche market product. Nor am I being pessimistic when I suggest there may be very little in the way of new models coming this next year. Pragmatic yes, negative no. As for them challenging the big 3 for volume, that is not going to happen.

And as far as you being right (again). We are 15 days away from Christmas and the only K2000 that is widely available from the leading online sellers is the kit with the flash and it is priced about the same as the k200D. As a matter of fact there are some leading retailers that don't even have it on their site. Considering the decline in sales that the report mentioned there sure as heck shouldn't be a shortage of supply. So what's up with that?

BTW, I never called them a second/third tier company. I called them a niche market producer. Big difference. A niche product can be exceptional and sell for a premium to it's market and make the parent company a lot of money.

Ken

Last edited by regken; 12-10-2008 at 08:32 AM.
12-10-2008, 08:38 AM   #150
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AS late as the K-m/K2000 was announced, it could be that the production run was smaller than people think or is behind schedule for some reason.
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