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11-02-2008, 11:55 PM   #31
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So, when you should we expect to see the K30D hit the market? I am ready to jump into the K20D now. Dare I wait?

11-03-2008, 12:44 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cicak Quote
So, when you should we expect to see the K30D hit the market? I am ready to jump into the K20D now. Dare I wait?
If you have no Pentax slr camera now then I would get the k20 and not wait for a future k30.

You'll otherwise miss many photo opportunities and the k20 is excellent value for money.
It will take at least a year or even longer before you can get a k30 for a similar price.
11-03-2008, 01:26 AM   #33
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The K30D will probably be somewhere around this time next year. Possibly earlier, around August.

Then again, K20D prices have fallen so low, I don't know if to blame it on retailers trying to clear stock for the K30D or the economy.
11-03-2008, 03:22 AM   #34
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Why would APS-H (1.3 crop) be suicide?
If Canon can have 1.3x crop sensors in their EOS-1D Mark II N and EOS-1D Mark III cameras, and if Pentax lenses can cover an image circle corresponding to APS-H, why would it be a flop?

So far I haven't seen any cogent explanation why it would be detrimental for Pentax to adopt APS-H.

11-03-2008, 04:08 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
I thnk you all missed the news in the opening item. The sensor size isn't the news-- who cares?

the real news was a rapid conversion of many existing lenses to SDM.
Please, please... this isn't news, it's a bad fake.
11-03-2008, 04:26 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Why would APS-H (1.3 crop) be suicide?
If Canon can have 1.3x crop sensors in their EOS-1D Mark II N and EOS-1D Mark III cameras, and if Pentax lenses can cover an image circle corresponding to APS-H, why would it be a flop?

So far I haven't seen any cogent explanation why it would be detrimental for Pentax to adopt APS-H.
Talk with APS-H Canon's camera's users - no normal wide-angle, no normal tele.
Canon offered APS-H in the time of very expensive FF and it's (no doubts)temporary format. Leica will launch S2 (new MF camera) in 2009 and new FF camera in 2010 and refuse from crop 1.3.

DA14, for example, can't cover APS-H. DA*16-50 and 50-135 too.

It's absolutely nonsense if DA*50-135 will be 65-175 or 16-50 = 20-65.
And e.t.c. DA*200 = 260.
11-03-2008, 04:38 AM   #37
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Time to wait and see.
11-03-2008, 04:44 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Why would APS-H (1.3 crop) be suicide?
If Canon can have 1.3x crop sensors in their EOS-1D Mark II N and EOS-1D Mark III cameras, and if Pentax lenses can cover an image circle corresponding to APS-H, why would it be a flop?

So far I haven't seen any cogent explanation why it would be detrimental for Pentax to adopt APS-H.
Because they will need to develop an all new mirror box, shutter, chassis and SR mechanism with no clear advantage over an APSC version (1.3 vs 1.5 crop will not mean much in noise terms). Then, most of their DA lenses will vignette even worse and have dreadful edge performance, for what? If they are going to go to all this trouble then they will do it once, when they feel the market is ready for their first FF camera, and will launch some lenses to go with it.

In the meantime, developing and tuning the existing components is a much more economically sensible option.

Perhaps Canon can afford this sort of thing but I doubt anyone else can.

11-03-2008, 04:52 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Why would APS-H (1.3 crop) be suicide?
If Canon can have 1.3x crop sensors in their EOS-1D Mark II N and EOS-1D Mark III cameras, and if Pentax lenses can cover an image circle corresponding to APS-H, why would it be a flop?

So far I haven't seen any cogent explanation why it would be detrimental for Pentax to adopt APS-H.
Creampuff,

The answer is simple but unfortunatelly has nothing to do with photography. In short "it's not cool to have a less than FF sensor", "Pentax cannot be taken seriously this way" and so on. I will put here my answer to that from the parallel thread on dpr:

"I really don't care what sensor size my camera has as long as it is: not very big, not very expensive, with the best DR and noise characteristics I can buy for that amount of money. IMO a larger sensor than APS-C with a lower pixel density could be the best compromise in those features vs. the price. Also this could mean a larger VF and the only actual difference in shooting is the new crop factor for the lenses. That's all it matters to me and I really don't live by numbers, acronyms of technology and self esteem validation points. CCD or CMOS, APS-C or other format ... bring it on!

I find it ironic that we tend to criticize 4/3 format for lack of DR and poorer noise control than our APS-C cameras based on sensor size but all of the sudden a 45% increase in area from APS-C to APS-H is not enough and we NEED to go all the way to FF. Also many here celebrate Leica for their totally new 45x30mm sensor format but hey, Pentax must obey the rules and go only FF and follow the rest.

For the final time if this will happen this camera will be more likely priced next to 50D and D300 and not 5D II or D700 so it's the prodigy of the class not the retarded cousin of FF and if this happens ironically they could attract a lot of people that need what FF can deliver in noise, DR and a thinner dof than APS-C but don't need the very high pixel count or to pay the full price of a FF camera.

You are right about the last part I confess I want to believe this as much as probably you don't simply because I'd like Pentax to put in my price range the best tool for the money (according to my criteria's obviously)."

Regards,
Radu
11-03-2008, 04:54 AM   #40
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I agree that APS-H would be a crazy move. As written before, there are no lenses suitable for this format. Well, obviously it can still use K-mount, but no equivalents to the "standard" focal lengths exist. Pentax cannot afford dual systems.

New versions of these lenses is hard to believe as well. Esp since some are too close to some of the newer DA glass.

Fine tuning seems to be a more Pentax-like approach, so I guess that's more likely. A smaller K30D? Shame about the grip (that saved me some money upgrading from the K10D). Hoping the batteries will still be the same (just got me some spare ones). But slightly smaller and lighter is always good for travellers like myself...

Wim
11-03-2008, 05:09 AM   #41
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Interesting move - if true. I did a small graphics to illustrate the sizes...

I used the standard sizes for aps-c (25.1 16.7 mm) and aps-h (30.2 16.7 mm), not the K20D size of aps-c (23.4 x 15.6 mm)
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Last edited by tcdk; 11-03-2008 at 05:13 AM. Reason: Added note on aps sizes used
11-03-2008, 05:15 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by tcdk Quote
Interesting move - if true. I did a small graphics to illustrate the sizes...

I used the standard sizes for aps-c (25.1 16.7 mm) and aps-h (30.2 16.7 mm), not the K20D size of aps-c (23.4 x 15.6 mm)
Where did APS-H get translated into this 16x9 like format? On digital APS-H is 3:2 just like APS-C and 135format. See:


[EDIT]I know APS-H used to indicate 16x9 on the APS-film format, but nobody even remembers that. APS-H now stands for what Canon made of it in its APS-H DSLRs...[/EDIT]

Wim
11-03-2008, 05:21 AM   #43
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Ok, Steve, let's play a little devil's advocate here:

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Because they will need to develop an all new mirror box, shutter, chassis and SR mechanism with no clear advantage over an APSC version (1.3 vs 1.5 crop will not mean much in noise terms).

A new shutter it's already needed if we are to get over 3fps ever from a Pentax I think. The SR mechanism is evolving from generation to generation of cameras but it will need to be stronger for the bigger sensor here I agree. A new chassis could be or not needed since cameras with FF are not THAT much bigger than K20D. More likely they could abandon the current steel chassis with ABS skin and go for a casted Al or Mg chassis. Like I said we're talking about 45% increase in size for the sensor of course you're entitled to say it's not much, but I think it is quite a difference. Even more so this mean an over 61% increase in area vs. the lattest Canon 50D sensor for presumably less pixels. This is our best chance to escape from the Mp race and make a visible leap in IQ IMO.
In fact IMO the only 2 parts that are inherently more expensive will be the sensor itself and the larger pentaprism.


Then, most of their DA lenses will vignette even worse and have dreadful edge performance, for what? If they are going to go to all this trouble then they will do it once, when they feel the market is ready for their first FF camera, and will launch some lenses to go with it.

Yes, for sure some DA lenses will perform worse but a crop factor for those means still 11Mp images and still presumably very good noise and DR performances!

In the meantime, developing and tuning the existing components is a much more economically sensible option.

It also means that you have nothing to trump the big guys in the semipro range were C and N sells probably close to a million D300 and 40/50D a year. With this camera Pentax IMO could create a very appealing hybrid between APS-C and FF and expand it's market share in the premium bracket.

Perhaps Canon can afford this sort of thing but I doubt anyone else can.

Don't forget that Samsung prowess in semiconductors it's pretty much state of the art and they also have no doubt the money to execute. If they managed to make a new sensor and sell it in probably 100K units with K20D and GX20D maybe will take this gamble to leapfrog the other in the semipro class and also gain some bragging rights. About the price of the sensor itself it's hard to evaluate but Samsung has for sure 300mm waffers and they could make it much more economical than a FF sensor both in terms of yield and obviously numbers per waffer. One final thought about this it may not be exactly APS-H but the most economical size close to it in order to fit as many as possible on the waffers
Regards,
Radu
11-03-2008, 05:22 AM   #44
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heard a great comment from a camera store last week.

No K300D, but a K30D and a K3D

the K30 would have ISO up to 128,000, and the K3 would be a fully pro camera. No comment on sensor format.

I had to laugh.
11-03-2008, 06:40 AM   #45
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Why are we all in an up roar over rumors?

1.3 crop is a good thing as many da lenses that do not work on FF will work with 1.3 and if they can get the noise right then its a good thing over apsc

As for FF being the future time will tell as for now the price vs apsc vs performance might be an issue if sensor development improve at the rate it has been.

Now for the lens rumors. Some make no sense but others do. Let's just see how it really works
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