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11-03-2008, 06:40 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
Where did APS-H get translated into this 16x9 like format? On digital APS-H is 3:2 just like APS-C and 135format. See:

[EDIT]I know APS-H used to indicate 16x9 on the APS-film format, but nobody even remembers that. APS-H now stands for what Canon made of it in its APS-H DSLRs...[/EDIT]

Wim
Okay. I had no idea. Somebody needs to tell all this to wikipedia:
Advanced Photo System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

11-03-2008, 07:50 AM   #47
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on a slight tangent, does anyone know how Sony's FF SR works?
Back before it was released, the theory was they'd have to build a 1.1x sized sensor or the lens glass would have to be modified. Neither appears to have happened so I'm still puzzled...
11-03-2008, 08:51 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
on a slight tangent, does anyone know how Sony's FF SR works?
Back before it was released, the theory was they'd have to build a 1.1x sized sensor or the lens glass would have to be modified. Neither appears to have happened so I'm still puzzled...
check there , some discussion

Super Steady Shot with Full Frame Sensors
11-03-2008, 09:30 AM   #49
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Thanks, deejjjaaaa. I googled for a while and used "shake reduction" instead of "steady shot" so I didn't have any luck ;-)

That explains a lot...a measly 30px shift, and a FF lens has a 43mm diameter image circle. No wonder Sony didn't need a heck of a lot of redesign...just a mirror box and they went all out and put together a bright 100% image one...

11-03-2008, 02:06 PM   #50
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To be honest SSS with A900 is nominal. Approx. 2 stop with low effectiveness.
Sony Alpha 900 Review: 18. Features: Digital Photography Review

effectiveness for 70 mm lenght - 75% at 1/50 and 25% at 1/25.
11-03-2008, 03:04 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I remember the mantra of a year ago when the rumour of the 14,6 Mp sensor first appeared. "There is no way Samsung and Pentax will do more than the 12Mp of Sony and Canon fot their first sensor. It's ludicrous!!!!!"
I bet Anastigmat still believes that in K20D is the 12 Mp Sony sensor but with a hack in firmware to show 14.6 Mp.

Regards,
Radu
Radua is absolutely correct.
11-03-2008, 04:22 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
To be honest SSS with A900 is nominal. Approx. 2 stop with low effectiveness.
Sony Alpha 900 Review: 18. Features: Digital Photography Review

effectiveness for 70 mm lenght - 75% at 1/50 and 25% at 1/25.
their test of K20 shows that K20D is one stop better than A900... but A900 is the first incarnation of FF in body stabilization... while K20D is not the first for APS-C... still certainly it is much more difficult to stabilize bigger sensor in body.
11-03-2008, 04:39 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Ok, Steve, let's play a little devil's advocate here:

Because they will need to develop an all new mirror box, shutter, chassis and SR mechanism with no clear advantage over an APSC version (1.3 vs 1.5 crop will not mean much in noise terms).

A new shutter it's already needed if we are to get over 3fps ever from a Pentax I think. The SR mechanism is evolving from generation to generation of cameras but it will need to be stronger for the bigger sensor here I agree. A new chassis could be or not needed since cameras with FF are not THAT much bigger than K20D. More likely they could abandon the current steel chassis with ABS skin and go for a casted Al or Mg chassis. Like I said we're talking about 45% increase in size for the sensor of course you're entitled to say it's not much, but I think it is quite a difference. Even more so this mean an over 61% increase in area vs. the lattest Canon 50D sensor for presumably less pixels. This is our best chance to escape from the Mp race and make a visible leap in IQ IMO.
In fact IMO the only 2 parts that are inherently more expensive will be the sensor itself and the larger pentaprism.

Then, most of their DA lenses will vignette even worse and have dreadful edge performance, for what? If they are going to go to all this trouble then they will do it once, when they feel the market is ready for their first FF camera, and will launch some lenses to go with it.

Yes, for sure some DA lenses will perform worse but a crop factor for those means still 11Mp images and still presumably very good noise and DR performances!

In the meantime, developing and tuning the existing components is a much more economically sensible option.

It also means that you have nothing to trump the big guys in the semipro range were C and N sells probably close to a million D300 and 40/50D a year. With this camera Pentax IMO could create a very appealing hybrid between APS-C and FF and expand it's market share in the premium bracket.

Perhaps Canon can afford this sort of thing but I doubt anyone else can.

Don't forget that Samsung prowess in semiconductors it's pretty much state of the art and they also have no doubt the money to execute. If they managed to make a new sensor and sell it in probably 100K units with K20D and GX20D maybe will take this gamble to leapfrog the other in the semipro class and also gain some bragging rights. About the price of the sensor itself it's hard to evaluate but Samsung has for sure 300mm waffers and they could make it much more economical than a FF sensor both in terms of yield and obviously numbers per waffer. One final thought about this it may not be exactly APS-H but the most economical size close to it in order to fit as many as possible on the waffers


Regards,
Radu
Why would I spend all that money for an 11MP camera?

By your logic, if I wanted better noise performance I would simply buy the 10MP Km or the "new" 12MP K300 and save myself a lot of money.

I would certainly not buy a camera on which 2000 of wide angle glass would stop working properly and force me to restrict the resolution of my camera.

11-03-2008, 05:23 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I remember the mantra of a year ago when the rumour of the 14,6 Mp sensor first appeared. "There is no way Samsung and Pentax will do more than the 12Mp of Sony and Canon fot their first sensor. It's ludicrous!!!!!"
I bet Anastigmat still believes that in K20D is the 12 Mp Sony sensor but with a hack in firmware to show 14.6 Mp.

Regards,
Radu
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Radua is absolutely correct.
And this means ... ? Rumors are rumors - some people will guess right and some people will guess wrong, but they're still just guessing. I'm just really suprised that anyone thinks Hoya is ready to pour lots of money into Pentax right now, especially with the global economy the way it is. If anyone has any *actual evidence* to the contrary, I'm all ears.
11-03-2008, 05:36 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Why would I spend all that money for an 11MP camera?

By your logic, if I wanted better noise performance I would simply buy the 10MP Km or the "new" 12MP K300 and save myself a lot of money.

I would certainly not buy a camera on which 2000 of wide angle glass would stop working properly and force me to restrict the resolution of my camera.
Hi, Steve!

IMO the is no such thing as a perfect camera for every possible user. Some favor wide angles, others telephoto and so on. So if one tries hard enough to find bad points for a camera one will for sure succede. Now the scenario I suggested is similar in principle with the crop factor of the D3 for example. If I am not mistaking the APS-C crop for D3 means 5Mp - pretty close to a k100D for example. I really don't think that these 5Mp and 6Mp images even though similar in resolution could be compared in terms of noise characteristics (high ISO in particular) and DR. The same with my scenario the 11Mp crop will inherit the superior properties of the new sensor and cannot be compared to K-m sensor IMO. Now please admit that a lot of DA lenses were tested more or less conclusively on FF cameras not on a 1,3x crop. Of course some will perform under par on a APS-H sensor (especially wide angles one like you said) but others may perform quite well actually and if someone knows for sure what the situation is this must be Hoya team.

Now a final thought about the sensor and the pipeline. I fully agree with you that by optimising both the current sensor in a version 2 of the same size and pixel count but better technology and in the same time the DSP and circuit board visible progress could be achieved. You said it very well on the other forum that a comparation between K10 and K-m will reveal a lot of enhancements from theoretically the same sensor and processor. Those being said now imagine that this improvement is magnified by another 50% by simply expanding the area whilst keeping about the same Mp count. I'll take this bonus anytime if the cost rises only by 20-25% tops.

This is my opinion and I also believe that we must try to think out of the confines imposed by other brands. The new sensor could very well be a non standard one in terms of size based on the best yield the current Samsung foundry could get from their waffers and accordingly the best price/performance ratio. I really don't care about numbers as long as the next camera from Pentax is a better photographic tool for my needs and priced reasonably.

Regards,
Radu
11-03-2008, 05:49 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by GaryM Quote
And this means ... ? Rumors are rumors - some people will guess right and some people will guess wrong, but they're still just guessing. I'm just really suprised that anyone thinks Hoya is ready to pour lots of money into Pentax right now, especially with the global economy the way it is. If anyone has any *actual evidence* to the contrary, I'm all ears.
I am sorry but from what I understand basically the design of a big sensor will cost about the same. The major differences in final cost per unit comes from yield and numbers per waffers and the quantity that's finaly produced. Again, speculating if this new sensor is not that more expensive to manufacture and could generate a real advantage for the next KxxD or KxD compared to its competitors in the same price bracket why this could mean from Hoya to pour more money into Pentax than a regular design? They have only 2 choices to make either keep the current sensor and electronics or if they change something basically the R&D costs will be the same only manufacturing costs willl differ and I think Samsung has some prowess in this field anyway.

IMO this means innovative thinking not following blindly what C, N or S do.

Regards,
Radu
11-03-2008, 07:45 PM   #57
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I'd love to see a sensor with 5:4 format... oh wait, that's what the 645d would hopefully do...
11-03-2008, 10:13 PM   #58
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I could quite honestly give a rat's ass about sensor size. I just want the best quality i can get for Pentax's usual low price. I believe that it'll be APS-C. Resolution-wise, 14 meg is lots but 16 or 18 would be cherry. If they keep up the tradition of 4 meg jumps, 18 is next. I could see them putting out another 14mp tho.

I'm a k10 user, so image quality is my concern. I've seen and heard results from the 20 that tempted me and reassured me. I don't shoot over 400 iso unless i HAVE to. I want useful results from 1600.

plrase keep screw drive AF.
11-03-2008, 11:19 PM   #59
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All I care about

Quite frankly other than marketing, 14mp is WAY more than enough pixels for most people.

I'd be happy as a clam if the k30d was as follows

14 or 16 mp

completely noise free up to ISO 1600

Better customization in camera for noise reduction

Max ISO boosted to 12800

at least 5 fps with 20ish in the buffer for RAW and 50+ for JPG at max res.

max shutter 1/8000 or better.

Maintain the weather proofing.

And I hope that Pentax will start selling their SLR's in several different major retail stores to build brand name.

Last edited by lurchlarson; 11-03-2008 at 11:20 PM. Reason: forgot one bit
11-04-2008, 12:37 AM   #60
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I remember that before K20D launch there was the same rumor.
It was approx. in the fall of 2007. Somebody said about 16:9 APS-H sensor for Pentax
30*16 мм and I posted such information too.

It's strange rumor. I can't understand how to use DA lenses at 30:16 and I don't like 16:9 ratio.

Maybe the main mode will be APS-C - 24*16 mm (3:2) and the 30*16 (16:9) will be as optional function. In this way it coud be interesting.
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