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12-06-2008, 04:07 AM   #106
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Agreed $2K sounds great

The D700 is only 12mp and its down to $2379. Nikon's D3 is 12mp and its down to $4098. 5DMarkII at 21mp is one I have a feeling will stay stuck at $2699 due to extreme demand. I'm surprised Canon didn't bump up msrp. On ebay resold 5D and its kit lens typically sell for up to $800 more than issue to eager buyers who need it now. It took Canon 2&1/2 years to go from $3299 to under $2,000 on 5D which is 12mp. Under 2K is where I jumped in at last summer.

K Mount full frame at $2,000 launch would be an incredible seller. Sony A900 at 24mp for $3,000 full frame and anti shake body is a great price point.

QuoteOriginally posted by leok Quote
Neither is appealing. I'd be much more interested in a 21mp full frame camera for $2000 or so - thats how much the Nikon 5D mark II will be once the initial stocks have sold...


12-06-2008, 05:37 AM   #107
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Why do you all want a FF from Pentax? When the APS-C came out they said the limit was 12 mpx. Then Pentax and Samsung made the 14.6 mpx cmos. This is were the R&D dollars are going APS-C not FF. Things are getting smaller not bigger. Also Pentax put in a patent for a way to make the FOV in a viewfinder bigger. This could be for a Camera with a Super APS-C sensor in it with near, equal or better FF specs. FF viewfinder with a Super APS-C sensor? You can have your cake and eat it too! Pentax will have 2 formats APS-C and Medium Format. My dream Pentax system PRO APS-C body for events! MF for Studio or special on location advertising work.
12-06-2008, 06:20 AM   #108
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As compared to ASPC, FF has :
-Thinner DOF,
-Better wide angle lenses,
-Much better dynamic and SNR (for same pixel count)

In and out, ASPC is just cropping of FF, so if you want a better reach on FF (the 1,5X factor), just crop the image and you'll get what you have on APSC.

On the other side, APSC allows for smaller, cheaper bodies, smaller lenses.

I calculated that I spend more than 4500 € this year on Pentax system, so buying a 3K body is not out of reach on my side. Especially since I have now most of the lense system that I need.

APSC cameras are not bad cameras, it's just that full frame are better.

Last edited by ghelary; 12-06-2008 at 06:46 AM.
12-06-2008, 06:45 AM   #109
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Bigger and more expensive cameras take better images.

12-06-2008, 07:03 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
5DMarkII at 21mp is one I have a feeling will stay stuck at $2699 due to extreme demand.
In Europe, the 5Dmk2 sells at $2305. And it is not only 20+ MP, it seems to be the best HDTV camera within this price range too. With prices coming down in 2009, I foresee a clear pattern for the end of 2009:
APS-C DSLR will sell at $299 - $999
FF DSLR will sell at > $1000
So, if Pentax want to continue generate profit from higher spec'ed (read $1000+) models like the *istD, the K10D and K20D, they better go FF now...
12-06-2008, 01:12 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by roentarre Quote
Bigger and more expensive cameras take better images.
Better photographers take better images. Bigger and more expensive cameras make *bigger* images.
12-06-2008, 03:09 PM   #112
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Nikon & Canon had the FF Monopoly. Then Sony Came along starting a price war! Then the Global meltdown. These Big three have invested alot of dollars in FF marketing so they better sell these FF cameras in a Down market. Pro's (only income being photography) I know are holding onto there dollars over big concerns about the economy and future work. In a slowing economy. I think it is smart for Pentax to stay out of this FF war. Because Nikon, Canon and Sony are losing money big time. Nikon, Canon and Sony don't want sell FF camera's at a big discount! They just have to. Great for photog's but not for company and system viability.

Last edited by Adrian Owerko; 12-06-2008 at 03:16 PM.
12-06-2008, 04:29 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
As compared to ASPC, FF has :
-Thinner DOF,
-Better wide angle lenses,
-Much better dynamic and SNR (for same pixel count)
The "better wide angle lenses thing isn't necessarily true. The problem is that no one has bothered to make high-quality wide-angles for APS-C going wider than 15mm equivalent. But there's absolutely nothing saying it can't be done. The Olympus 7-14 lens is the widest non-FF lens availabe at 14-28mm equivalent, and it's an absolutely superb performer, all the way out to the corners. Better than most FF wide lenses, regularly compared to Nikon's new 14-24.

I'll bet if pentax really wanted to, they could put out a spectacular 9-16mm or so lens to cover APS-C.

12-06-2008, 06:37 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by GaryM Quote
Better photographers take better images. Bigger and more expensive cameras make *bigger* images.
Good one!
12-06-2008, 07:00 PM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by GaryM Quote
Better photographers take better images. Bigger and more expensive cameras make *bigger* images.
Better photographers with bigger cameras can make better AND bigger images.
12-07-2008, 12:26 AM   #116
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Bigger marketing departments make Bigger profits whether the cameras make the buyer's photos bigger or better or not.
12-07-2008, 12:55 AM   #117
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The photographers whose work I most enjoy, both street and landscape and everything in between, did their work with cameras whose "specs" would be laughed off every pixel peeping site on the internet.

Of course, they had no internet so they were none the wiser.

In our rapidly worsening economic times. the camera makers to prosper will be the ones that give us the best results at the most economical price with the widest access to "legacy" gear. Come to think of it, that spells P E N T A X.

It is true, Canon, Nikon and Sony are losing a bundle on their FF cameras.
12-07-2008, 09:28 AM   #118
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Nikon is likely using Sony sensor in new D3x, "with Pixie Dust" added

Nikon revised the sensor pitch specs, now its indentical to Sony A900:

So its a $3000 Anti shake body versus $8000 w/ Pixie Dust and mount difference.

I agree though the 12mp in D3 and D700 sensors are widely regarded as Nikon made items.

Link:

Nikon D3X DSLR


QuoteOriginally posted by er1kksen Quote
About the Nikon using the Sony sensor, that's a bit misinformed. Nikon designs their own top-end sensors (like the 12mp FF in the D3) and sources them to a relatively unkown (to us) company to fabricate. Their use of their own exclusive sensors in their top-end cameras is a matter of pride to them, and they have stated that their sensor is not the same as that used in the sony. Also, the pixel-pitch of the Nikon sensor has been stated to be different than the Sony's (smaller, surprisingly enough).
12-07-2008, 12:11 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
I'd guess if pentax offered a full frame 12mp for $3k it would fly off the shelves, right? If pentax offered a 24mp full frame for $8k very few here or anywhere would buy it? Just my guess.

What do you think? $3K versus $8K would either price points make it a Must Have?
Nope, $3k is too much. Way too much in fact. I can't think of one single person I know that would pay $3000 for a FF Pentax over a $2300 Nikon D700 or $2600 Canon 5D Mark II. I personally would switch brands if my only upgrade path from my K10D was a $3000 camera.

To be honest I cant justify spending over $1500 on any camera body seeing as how good the $800 K20D and $1100 Nikon D90 (with lens) are. It just makes more sense to invest in nice future proof full frame lenses now, then buy a FF camera body when they drop down under $2000 in a few years.

I think if Pentax really wanted to attract enthusiast to the Pentax brand they should try and create a sub $2000 FF body. Just basically make a FF K20D.
12-07-2008, 12:54 PM   #120
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It might be cool if Pentax stuck to APS-C until they can make a sub $2000 FF. Until then they'd be tweaking and tweaking the APS-C lineup.
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