Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-07-2008, 09:04 PM   #121
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 379
QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Better photographers with bigger cameras can make better AND bigger images.
Sure, as long as they're not too worn out from carrying their giant cameras around, and scaring off their subjects ;P

12-08-2008, 02:54 AM   #122
Veteran Member
*isteve's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,187
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Nope, $3k is too much. Way too much in fact. I can't think of one single person I know that would pay $3000 for a FF Pentax over a $2300 Nikon D700 or $2600 Canon 5D Mark II. I personally would switch brands if my only upgrade path from my K10D was a $3000 camera.

To be honest I cant justify spending over $1500 on any camera body seeing as how good the $800 K20D and $1100 Nikon D90 (with lens) are. It just makes more sense to invest in nice future proof full frame lenses now, then buy a FF camera body when they drop down under $2000 in a few years.

I think if Pentax really wanted to attract enthusiast to the Pentax brand they should try and create a sub $2000 FF body. Just basically make a FF K20D.
You want to restrict your photography for a few years just so that you have FF lenses IN CASE they ever make a FF camera when for the same few years you could be exploiting your K20D to the full using APS lenses? That makes no sense to me. Lenses do not last forever like in the MF days.

In a few years, APS cameras will have better high ISO and DR, in which case there is even less case for a FF camera. If you still want a FF camera, and they make one, then sell the APS lenses! At least you will have had some use from them in the meantime.
12-08-2008, 09:07 AM   #123
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 886
QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
You want to restrict your photography for a few years just so that you have FF lenses IN CASE they ever make a FF camera when for the same few years you could be exploiting your K20D to the full using APS lenses? That makes no sense to me. Lenses do not last forever like in the MF days.

In a few years, APS cameras will have better high ISO and DR, in which case there is even less case for a FF camera. If you still want a FF camera, and they make one, then sell the APS lenses! At least you will have had some use from them in the meantime.
I don't feel restricted at all. There are plenty of options out there that work fine in FF & APS-C. I bought a $140 FF Tamron 70-300mm instead of the $400 Pentax APS-C 55-300mm and couldn't be happier with it for it only being a $140 lens. And I'm currently trying to decide between Sigma's new 24-70mm f 2.8 or the Pentax FA 43mm Limited for my next lens. The only dedicated APS-C lens I would consider spending over $150 for would be a ultra wide angle lens. But there again, Sigma makes a 12-24mm that is also full frame compatible. So I would just get that.

And it's not that I am one of those guys that want a FF camera. I really don't care, APS-C is fine. However, I don't believe for one second that Pentax will continue this APS-C only strategy once FF bodies drop below $2000. I personally don't think that time is too far off, so to save myself the hassle of buying, selling, and losing money on lenses (and the resale on APS-C lenses will plummet once FF gets cheaper) I'll just buy future proof lenses now.
12-08-2008, 09:21 AM   #124
Veteran Member
awo425's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 481
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I don't feel restricted at all. There are plenty of options out there that work fine in FF & APS-C. I bought a $140 FF Tamron 70-300mm instead of the $400 Pentax APS-C 55-300mm and couldn't be happier with it for it only being a $140 lens. And I'm currently trying to decide between Sigma's new 24-70mm f 2.8 or the Pentax FA 43mm Limited for my next lens. The only dedicated APS-C lens I would consider spending over $150 for would be a ultra wide angle lens. But there again, Sigma makes a 12-24mm that is also full frame compatible. So I would just get that.

And it's not that I am one of those guys that want a FF camera. I really don't care, APS-C is fine. However, I don't believe for one second that Pentax will continue this APS-C only strategy once FF bodies drop below $2000. I personally don't think that time is too far off, so to save myself the hassle of buying, selling, and losing money on lenses (and the resale on APS-C lenses will plummet once FF gets cheaper) I'll just buy future proof lenses now.
+1, I completely agree with you.
The way used cropped DA lenses are loosing value is just confirming you theory.
Also, US street price for first generation FF Canon 5D is below $1700 now, and it is still awesome camera in terms of DR, resolution and low noise by even today's standards.

12-08-2008, 11:15 AM   #125
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 379
QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
+1, I completely agree with you.
The way used cropped DA lenses are loosing value is just confirming you theory.
Also, US street price for first generation FF Canon 5D is below $1700 now, and it is still awesome camera in terms of DR, resolution and low noise by even today's standards.
Sigh. DA lenses are NOT cropped, they are perfectly matched for the APS-C sensors they were designed for. And that's great that the 5D has dropped so much in price, but it's been out for several years, and I could buy 2 K20Ds for less than that.

The rules are not going to change any time soon: FF equals better resolution, better high ISO, slightly more dynamic range, and shallower depth of field; APS-C equals cheaper, smaller and lighter bodies. There's obviously a demand for both, but with a collapsing global economy, 'cheaper' is going to get the lion's share of the market for some time to come.
12-08-2008, 11:53 AM   #126
Veteran Member
ManuH's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,209
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
However, I don't believe for one second that Pentax will continue this APS-C only strategy once FF bodies drop below $2000. I personally don't think that time is too far off,
Hmmm, you will have to wait to at least 2010. I don't see Canon/Nikon/Sony getting out a sub-2000$ FF when they just released their latest FF models. Even Canon was not in a hurry to upgrade the ageing 5D. Sony does it for pure prestige and Nikon tries to become the Pros King again.

It means that during at least two years you will be buying old FF lenses "just in case". Meanwhile you'll not benefit from DA glass that is available now and is better performing on APS-C. My experience with technology says that you should never buy something in advance in prevision of something that will take advantage of it later. I know, glass is not the same, last for ever, etc, NOT. The coating for digital is different, SDM motors are more common, AF may have to be adapted for liveview, etc.

And anyway, any APS-C lens will still work on a FF body, even it's only in crop mode. We don't always need the benefits of FF.

For Pentax, getting out a FF body is not that difficult. They already have the mount so it's not really a matter of technology. It's rather a matter of economics and right now it certainly doesn't make sense to have a losing money FF camera in the line-up.
12-08-2008, 11:56 AM   #127
Veteran Member
awo425's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 481
QuoteOriginally posted by GaryM Quote
Sigh. DA lenses are NOT cropped, they are perfectly matched for the APS-C sensors they were designed for. And that's great that the 5D has dropped so much in price, but it's been out for several years, and I could buy 2 K20Ds for less than that.

The rules are not going to change any time soon: FF equals better resolution, better high ISO, slightly more dynamic range, and shallower depth of field; APS-C equals cheaper, smaller and lighter bodies. There's obviously a demand for both, but with a collapsing global economy, 'cheaper' is going to get the lion's share of the market for some time to come.
In the "collapsing global economy" demand for 5D mkII right now is HIGHER then ability of Canon to produce this camera.
I have also quite a few friends in a Nikon camp who recently upgraded D70s to D700. I wonder how many people here would buy 12 mp FF Pentax body for $1800 with all the qualities you listed, I bet quite a few. I will in a New York minute.
12-08-2008, 11:58 AM   #128
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Colorado USA
Posts: 1,337
Launch High then sell it for less.

I bought my second 5d brand new for $1750 when the K20D was still holding at $1299 original issue. So for me at that point in time I paid $450 more for full frame. A few weeks ago I bought my first K20D for $695 delivered due to a $100 gift card being included& it also brand new & inspite of being told otherwise it was a USA model from B&H that did qualify for 3 year warranty. So comparing prices is all relative to when you actually buy~in. I would never buy a freshly issued dslr because the inflated issue is not worth being first to have it. I did that once and in four months saw the $800 camera drop to $420 when I got a second one.

When you have a dslr inhand you can save big money waiting for the price to settle down from 1/3 to 1/2 of launch.

So I learned my lesson. Wait 6 months or longer and you can save hundreds of dollars for very same dslr.

I diagree aps-c will go away. Olympus and Pentax have bet their companies fortunes on the small format and since the two occupy less than 10% of dslr market share they will always likely have this percentage. Maybe 10% share will grow when nikon and canon no longer produce aps-c format dslrs? Pentax has better positioned themselves in outsourcing all production to Vietnam and Philippines. Heck even the FA 50mm 1.4 is made in Vietnam now. So making equiptment will cost less due to lower labor costs.


QuoteOriginally posted by GaryM Quote
Sigh. DA lenses are NOT cropped, they are perfectly matched for the APS-C sensors they were designed for. And that's great that the 5D has dropped so much in price, but it's been out for several years, and I could buy 2 K20Ds for less than that.

The rules are not going to change any time soon: FF equals better resolution, better high ISO, slightly more dynamic range, and shallower depth of field; APS-C equals cheaper, smaller and lighter bodies. There's obviously a demand for both, but with a collapsing global economy, 'cheaper' is going to get the lion's share of the market for some time to come.


12-08-2008, 12:54 PM   #129
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 379
QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
In the "collapsing global economy" demand for 5D mkII right now is HIGHER then ability of Canon to produce this camera.
I have also quite a few friends in a Nikon camp who recently upgraded D70s to D700. I wonder how many people here would buy 12 mp FF Pentax body for $1800 with all the qualities you listed, I bet quite a few. I will in a New York minute.
Since you used quotes, I guess you don't think the global economy is tanking, so apparently we live in different worlds. One of my friends who became recently unemployed is actually selling his DSLR gear to help pay the bills. And it's looking mighty bleak for Best Buy and Circuit City here in the U.S. this holiday season.

As far as Canon not being able to produce enough 5D MkIIs to meet demand: how many Digital Rebels and 50Ds do you think Canon will sell for every 5D over the course of the next year? After the initial rush to buy their shiny new product, I'm guessing that Canon will have no trouble keeping up with demand. And yes, many Pentax users would jump at the chance to buy a FF body over $2000: *hundreds* of them. And if you think Pentax could produce a FF body, with its tiny market share, the economics of scale, and Hoya's blessing, for under $2,000, then you're really dreaming.
12-08-2008, 01:00 PM   #130
Veteran Member
soccerjoe5's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Philippines
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,354
QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
In the "collapsing global economy" demand for 5D mkII right now is HIGHER then ability of Canon to produce this camera.
I have also quite a few friends in a Nikon camp who recently upgraded D70s to D700. I wonder how many people here would buy 12 mp FF Pentax body for $1800 with all the qualities you listed, I bet quite a few. I will in a New York minute.
When it's below $2000 (not just the typical $1999), like around $1800 or $1700, that's when I'll consider/bite

HOWEVER if it gets to that point, how much will Pentax's APS-C be by then? It might be so affordable that I'll just stick to it and be more practical. It will also be improved by a lot by then.
12-08-2008, 01:58 PM   #131
Veteran Member
awo425's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 481
QuoteOriginally posted by GaryM Quote
Since you used quotes, I guess you don't think the global economy is tanking, so apparently we live in different worlds. One of my friends who became recently unemployed is actually selling his DSLR gear to help pay the bills. And it's looking mighty bleak for Best Buy and Circuit City here in the U.S. this holiday season.

As far as Canon not being able to produce enough 5D MkIIs to meet demand: how many Digital Rebels and 50Ds do you think Canon will sell for every 5D over the course of the next year? After the initial rush to buy their shiny new product, I'm guessing that Canon will have no trouble keeping up with demand. And yes, many Pentax users would jump at the chance to buy a FF body over $2000: *hundreds* of them. And if you think Pentax could produce a FF body, with its tiny market share, the economics of scale, and Hoya's blessing, for under $2,000, then you're really dreaming.
No, we live in the same world. I feel sorry for your friend.
There's probably a reason why Best Buy and Circuit City are not looking well. I went there a few times and never was able to get a knowledgeable salesperson, and there inventory was laughable.
I go to B&H or J&R instead, last time I checked they were not complaining about business, especially B&H.
Some companies are going under, some are staying afloat, it's always been like this.
As for the Pentax, I will wait for a miracle, I guess, and see if they will change there mind in the next few month about FF camera strategy, if not, it's there loss, not mine. And amount of people who think the same will not be in "hundreds" around the world in a year, but much more.
12-08-2008, 02:21 PM   #132
Veteran Member
deejjjaaaa's Avatar

Join Date: May 2007
Location: steel city / rust belt
Posts: 2,046
QuoteOriginally posted by ManuH Quote
Hmmm, you will have to wait to at least 2010. I don't see Canon/Nikon/Sony getting out a sub-2000$ FF when they just released their latest FF models.
D700 body will cost me USD $2250 delivered to USA from Henry's ebay buy-it-now auction (using 15% off ebay/paypal coupon and my 3% cash back on credit card)... wait for some time and it will be below $2000.

Delaware Camera lists for USD $2600... I purchased from them before and they are compatible
w/ M$ live cash back... now USD $200 off from M$ and $100 off from ebay/paypal coupon and $3% off the gross from credit card will be USD $2222 + $10 shipping and Delaware Camera is in USA, no worries about the warranty at all.

Prodigital2000 is said to become compatible w/ M$ live.com cashback - they have it for $2300 all inclusive.... now that will be in fact below USD $2K using cashback and coupon... here we go... congratulations.

Last edited by deejjjaaaa; 12-08-2008 at 02:28 PM.
12-08-2008, 03:21 PM   #133
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 379
QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
No, we live in the same world. I feel sorry for your friend.
There's probably a reason why Best Buy and Circuit City are not looking well. I went there a few times and never was able to get a knowledgeable salesperson, and there inventory was laughable.
I go to B&H or J&R instead, last time I checked they were not complaining about business, especially B&H.
Some companies are going under, some are staying afloat, it's always been like this.
As for the Pentax, I will wait for a miracle, I guess, and see if they will change there mind in the next few month about FF camera strategy, if not, it's there loss, not mine. And amount of people who think the same will not be in "hundreds" around the world in a year, but much more.
The big retail downturn is about a lot more than bad customer service. B&H might say they're doing ok, and maybe they are right now, but I'm sure they're preparing for a drop in sales too - it's coming! The U.S. will be shedding as many as 500k jobs per month for the next year, and it's going to get ugly. Not being able to upgrade our cameras will be the *least* of our worries.
12-08-2008, 09:49 PM   #134
Veteran Member
*isteve's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,187
QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I don't feel restricted at all. There are plenty of options out there that work fine in FF & APS-C. I bought a $140 FF Tamron 70-300mm instead of the $400 Pentax APS-C 55-300mm and couldn't be happier with it for it only being a $140 lens. And I'm currently trying to decide between Sigma's new 24-70mm f 2.8 or the Pentax FA 43mm Limited for my next lens. The only dedicated APS-C lens I would consider spending over $150 for would be a ultra wide angle lens. But there again, Sigma makes a 12-24mm that is also full frame compatible. So I would just get that.

And it's not that I am one of those guys that want a FF camera. I really don't care, APS-C is fine. However, I don't believe for one second that Pentax will continue this APS-C only strategy once FF bodies drop below $2000. I personally don't think that time is too far off, so to save myself the hassle of buying, selling, and losing money on lenses (and the resale on APS-C lenses will plummet once FF gets cheaper) I'll just buy future proof lenses now.
So APSC will go away when they bring out a FF camera? Dont think so. Checked out the price of Nikon DX lenses and Canon EFS? The Tamron is a very second rate lens that cant even do justice to a *istD. I care about photography and I assure you I would rather have a 50-135 F2.8 on a K20D than the Tamron on a D3.

Sorry but I think your whole premise is rediculous. Most so called FF lenses perform like crap on FF, especially the consumer lenses. Just look around the forums on DPReview. You are wasting your time and money.
12-08-2008, 10:29 PM   #135
Pentaxian
Duplo's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 916
QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
I care about photography and I assure you I would rather have a 50-135 F2.8 on a K20D than the Tamron on a D3.
Agreed. simple as that.
No sense buing a 5K USD body and not invest in good glass for it to see through.

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Sorry but I think your whole premise is rediculous. Most so called FF lenses perform like crap on FF, especially the consumer lenses. Just look around the forums on DPReview. You are wasting your time and money.
35mm digital is demanding on lenses in a different way than film that is for sure.
Some old lenses will likely do well, while others will not. The odd part is that it is not necessary focal length dependant, so without having tested the lenses on 35mm digital there is no way to know how they will perform.

However my guess is however is that you have a good chance to be right about your assesment... but there are surprises, the new ziess line has proven very good on 35mm digital.

Personally I would guess that the FA* and FA limited line of lenses will turn out to be decent performing lenses. but how decent is a god question?

Anyway your point about buying the best lenses for the format you currently shoot, is definitely sound to me.
My camera and lenses are tools for either work or hobby, not investments.

The pricething though is what I find most funny, 35mm digital is still very expensive when you compare bodies... it is around the 3000 USD mark (MSRP) and top end body is in the 5-8K range, the recent D3x release simply confirms that.

Now would I like to see a 35mm digital body from pentax - and yes 3000 USD would be perfectly OK for me - sure I would, but I am not holding my breath for one.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
af, aps-c, cmos, fa, ii, mp, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, sdm, sensor
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
K-7 Speculations (moved over from review section) sctybear Pentax DSLR Discussion 15 05-07-2010 05:48 PM
Thoughts: K30D, APS-H, Ultrawide lenses jfsavage Pentax News and Rumors 59 02-16-2009 10:51 AM
K300D and K30D soon? flyer Pentax News and Rumors 102 02-08-2009 07:19 PM
put your money where your mouth is! K30D/K300D bet pool! Gooshin Pentax News and Rumors 22 11-10-2008 09:27 AM
Your Speculations? (on the Hoya-Pentax Issue) RiceHigh Pentax News and Rumors 37 06-16-2007 03:08 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:31 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top