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06-26-2020, 01:13 PM   #46
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Updated both my K-3 and K-1 after formatting a card in each respective camera and transfering the respective extracted Bin files to the root of each card. I used Windows 10 (2004). The K-3 update while smaller (about 14MB v 18MB) than the K-1 seemed to take twice as long. Looks like I'm good for the 85 now

06-26-2020, 01:28 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Larrymc Quote
Yeah, everything I've read says its advisable to format in camera rather than a Mac or PC format. But, everyone has an opinion about this stuff as for me I format after each copy operation to my computer when I replace the card back in the camera.
I generally just format the card in camera and let it do what it wants. When I was working photolabs, we would very often get cards in that we couldn't read, and the common theme was that the customer had not formatted the card prior to use. Formatting is important, it prepares the card for use. If I have a card problem, I will deep format it on the computer and then format it again it camera. I've rarely had a card fail, and that seems to bring them back.
As far as the bin file for updates, I just stick a card into my reader, delete whatever is on it (not format) and put the update file onto the card.
06-26-2020, 03:11 PM - 4 Likes   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
My explanation is that there was some bug with the older K-1, K-1 II and K-3 firmware.
A single byte in a certain memory location would suffice. Or a slightly different code/revision. Or a very minor hardware component. Or pretty much anything.
Lens optimisation firmware updates have been oddly distributed.

In recent years, cameras being listed from oldest to newest, lenses being listed only when launched after the corresponding camera (except when specified otherwise) and from oldest to newest:
  • K-3 was updated for DA 18-50mm, D FA 150-450mm, D FA 70-200mm, KAF4 compatibility, D FA 50mm and D FA 85mm, not for DA 20-40mm (announced one month after the camera -support was probably included in the original firmware) nor DA 16-85mm nor D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm.
    ---
  • K-S1 was updated for DA 18-50mm, D FA 150-450mm, D FA 70-200mm and KAF4 compatibility, not for DA 16-85mm (announced two months after the camera -support was probably included in the original firmware) nor D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Ricoh stopped updating this camera once KAF4 compatibility was added.
    ---
  • K-S2 was updated for D FA 150-450mm, D FA 70-200mm (even though both lenses were announced five days before the camera) and KAF4 compatibility, not for D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Ricoh stopped updating this camera once KAF4 compatibility was added.
    ---
  • K-3 II was updated for KAF4 compatibility, not for D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Ricoh stopped updating this camera once KAF4 compatibility was added
    ---
  • K-1 was updated for KAF4 compatibility, D FA 50mm, DA11-18-mm, D FA 70-210mm and D FA 85mm. Ricoh have fully updated this camera.
    ---
  • K-70 was updated for DA 55-300mm PLM RE (announced the very same day as the camera), not D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Apart from DA 55-300mm PLM RE Ricoh never updated this camera for lens optimisation purpose.
    ---
  • KP was updated for D FA 50mm, not DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Odd.
    ---
  • K-1 Mark II was updated for DA11-18-mm, D FA 70-210mm and D FA 85mm, not D FA 50mm (announced four months after the camera -support might have been included in the original firmware). One may consider Ricoh have fully updated this camera.
06-26-2020, 05:14 PM   #49
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Odd enough, DFA*85/1.4 works fine on KPJL.

06-26-2020, 05:51 PM   #50
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There could be a certain reasoning to the unusual individual camera updates. I would not expect a K-70 user to be a typical customer of the DFA*s, the K-P was / is targeted at a DA Limited user base. The K-3 is interesting as is the K-1 but holds through to the theory that Ricoh believe that flagship users hold onto their cameras longer than would be typical amongst their competitors. I have both the K-3 and K-1 and would sooner spend on a new lens than an incremental body update. So works for me
Is it a possibility that the newer KAF4 lens types hold their own firmware with bi-directional data transfers between camera and lens?
06-27-2020, 02:16 AM   #51
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Lenses have their internal firmware even if it is not shown to us.
Lenses also send optical corrections (starting DA lenses) informations to the body (which may or may not be specific to body format hence, some update still for aps cams with DFA*??). At least that's what was said by RI at the time they introduced in-body corrections.
06-29-2020, 10:48 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Lens optimisation firmware updates have been oddly distributed.
Do you know what exactly is optimised?

Lenses come with their own firmware and their own correction data, so I wonder why the camera needs any updates at all.

I could imagine focus movement profiles but why are they not stored in the lenses themselves?

Is the data that needs to be stored too big to fit into limited lens memory?

07-02-2020, 04:53 AM - 2 Likes   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Lens optimisation firmware updates have been oddly distributed.

In recent years, cameras being listed from oldest to newest, lenses being listed only when launched after the corresponding camera (except when specified otherwise) and from oldest to newest:
  • K-3 was updated for DA 18-50mm, D FA 150-450mm, D FA 70-200mm, KAF4 compatibility, D FA 50mm and D FA 85mm, not for DA 20-40mm (announced one month after the camera -support was probably included in the original firmware) nor DA 16-85mm nor D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm.
    ---
  • K-S1 was updated for DA 18-50mm, D FA 150-450mm, D FA 70-200mm and KAF4 compatibility, not for DA 16-85mm (announced two months after the camera -support was probably included in the original firmware) nor D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Ricoh stopped updating this camera once KAF4 compatibility was added.
    ---
  • K-S2 was updated for D FA 150-450mm, D FA 70-200mm (even though both lenses were announced five days before the camera) and KAF4 compatibility, not for D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Ricoh stopped updating this camera once KAF4 compatibility was added.
    ---
  • K-3 II was updated for KAF4 compatibility, not for D FA 24-70mm nor D FA 15-30mm nor D FA 28-105mm nor D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Ricoh stopped updating this camera once KAF4 compatibility was added
    ---
  • K-1 was updated for KAF4 compatibility, D FA 50mm, DA11-18-mm, D FA 70-210mm and D FA 85mm. Ricoh have fully updated this camera.
    ---
  • K-70 was updated for DA 55-300mm PLM RE (announced the very same day as the camera), not D FA 50mm nor DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Apart from DA 55-300mm PLM RE Ricoh never updated this camera for lens optimisation purpose.
    ---
  • KP was updated for D FA 50mm, not DA11-18-mm nor D FA 70-210mm nor D FA 85mm. Odd.
    ---
  • K-1 Mark II was updated for DA11-18-mm, D FA 70-210mm and D FA 85mm, not D FA 50mm (announced four months after the camera -support might have been included in the original firmware). One may consider Ricoh have fully updated this camera.
I have the official reason (close to what i wrote just before) for lenses FW update/non update concerning bodies : the contrast AF sensors references differ from one body model to another, so making FW update necessary or not for that model.
The relation is therefore not to be found in LV mode use.
There is absolutely no ROM issue with the FW update situation.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-02-2020 at 06:09 AM.
07-02-2020, 05:05 AM   #54
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So PD AF is totally unaffected by those firmware updates.
07-02-2020, 06:19 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I have the official reason (close to what i wrote just before) for lenses FW update/non update concerning bodies : the contrast AF sensors references differ from one body model to another, so making FW update necessary or not for that model.
The relation is therefore not to be found in LV mode use.
There is absolutely no ROM issue with the FW update situation.
Thank you for this information. However, I don't understand: isn't contrast autofocus precisely used in live view mode?

Did you mean phase autofocus sensors?
07-02-2020, 12:16 PM   #56
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Sorry for confusing, i heard clearly "contrast AF sensors".
There was one misleading word in my second sentence and it stands corrected : "the relation is therefore to be found in LV mode use."
07-02-2020, 02:12 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Sorry for confusing, i heard clearly "contrast AF sensors".
There was one misleading word in my second sentence and it stands corrected : "the relation is therefore to be found in LV mode use."
That's odd because there is no such thing as contrast autofocus sensors. The whole imaging sensor is used for contrast autofocus, there are no dedicated pixels like those for on-sensor phase detection autofocus (or the dedicated autofocus module for a DSLR in optical viewfinder mode).
07-02-2020, 03:11 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
That's odd because there is no such thing as contrast autofocus sensors.
The statement makes more sense if you change it from
" the contrast AF sensors references differ from one body model to another"
to
" the contrast-AF sensor reference differs from one body model to another".
I think that was probably what was meant.

It also makes sense for the contrast AF approach to be somewhat lens dependent (as different lenses produce different levels of contrast) whereas PDAF should be independent of the lens (modulo the AF various adjustments stored in the lens memory).
07-02-2020, 03:53 PM   #59
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^ Zygonyx and I are French, therefore not completely at ease (I for one am not) with these subtleties. My point remains anyway: there is no such thing as a contrast-AF sensor or contrast-AF sensor reference. The whole imaging sensor is used for contrast autofocus. Furthermore, K-3 and K-3 II share the same imaging sensor, yet one needs updates and the other does not.
07-03-2020, 12:22 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
My point remains anyway: there is no such thing as a contrast-AF sensor or contrast-AF sensor reference.
I agree that there is no "contrast-AF sensor".

One can make sense of "contrast-AF sensor reference", though.

We agree there is "contrast AF", i.e., the method of using any part of the imaging sensor to achieve AF by means of maximising (micro) contrast.

Now, "sensor reference" could refer to a "contrast level reference", i.e., a reference point regarding the amount of (local micro) contrast as achievable for a given lens on a particular sensor.

Better lenses can achieve higher levels of contrast on the imaging sensor and knowing a reference point of maximum contrast that is achievable on a particular sensor could help with optimising AF acquisition times. A normal feedback loop would always achieve maximum contrast (i.e., the best possible AF) after a while, but I'm assuming that it helps how far the contrast is away from a (normalised) optimum in order to drive the lens focus near the optimal region as quickly as possible.

It is also conceivable that there is a threshold value above which contrast AF will terminate, regardless of whether further iterations may produce even slightly better micro contrast. This could also be the "sensor reference" that needs to vary based on the lens.

I know that the above is speculation; I was just trying to read sense into the statement.

As to why some cameras receive updates and others not, maybe it is not always a question of whether the updated is "needed" but other considerations are at play?
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