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06-30-2020, 11:49 AM   #76
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This could be meaningful.
"The United States does not have any specific laws punishing the practice of planned obsolescence in consumer products. However, the Consumer Product Safety Commission can choose to enforce durability standards for certain products"

"If a company wishes to use planned obsolescence, that is one thing. If the planned obsolescence leads to a dangerous breakdown of the product, the company should absorb liability for any resulting damages."
What is Planned Obsolescence? Can You Sue for Negligence?
It appears in the US at least, "A company may design a product to fail after a certain amount of time, typically shortly after the warranty period expires. "

06-30-2020, 11:54 AM   #77
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This seems to be what would be debated in court.
Product Liability Laws: Implied and Express Warranties | LawFirms.com
06-30-2020, 12:10 PM   #78
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A relevant precedent.

The complaint, as later amended, alleged that the damages claimed resulted from a single defective part, the valve stem seal, which is supposed to prevent oil from leaking into the engine's combustion chamber.

795 F2d 238 Abraham v. Volkswagen of America Inc Volkswagen of America Inc | OpenJurist

100 claims were needed. Claims outside the warranty are not allowed.



The district court also ruled that express warranty claims for damage that occurred outside the time/mileage limits of the warranty were barred as a matter of law. 103 F.R.D. at 362.
06-30-2020, 12:23 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serkevan Quote
Coming from process engineering, a change of materials is changing the design, as designs necessarily include the material selection (and they also reduced the quality of the workmanship from what I've seen). I see how that would be a point of confusion
and there is no evidence that Pentax Japan knew at the time that the materials had been changed, since neither company changed the product number.

06-30-2020, 01:01 PM - 4 Likes   #80
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Do users here really want Pentax to be destroyed? The majority of the comments certainly come across like that.
I still have a k-30 and i don't recall any more than a couple dark-ish images.
This law suit suddenly comes up when the K-new is coming out. In no way that is a coincidence particularly during a pandemic and in the USA and directed at Ricoh USA. Just who are the people (in general) that are litigating this? Of all the possible brands they choose Pentax and for something as old as the K-30. It makes no sense especially with the lawyers fees. This sounds like a money grab and they aimed for a company that wouldn't have as much legal process funds to spend like Nikon, Canon or Sony would. Nikon never wanted to fix my original D850 IQ processing problem and that happened every time at 400 iso or higher. I got a refurbished one and it works fine and made a-lot more sense that any litigation. I also ended up with a decent ND filter in the process.

All this does have a familiar blind range attacks on the Nikon D750 vibe to it.

Last edited by solitudebound; 06-30-2020 at 01:17 PM.
06-30-2020, 02:43 PM - 1 Like   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
From the lawsuit, it is likely the camera was a K-50 purchased sometime in late 2014. Her taking so long does not surprise me. We still get inquiries regarding aperture block failures on K-50 cameras that had been put away within a few months of purchase and not used since.


Steve
My K-50is still chugging on along bought on Dec 11, 2013 ser# 4706482, I'm assuming it has the white solenoid because it was lightly used until I bought my K-3 in Nov of 2014. I check the K-50 every couple of weeks. I just don't see this lawsuit getting anywhere, but one never knows.
06-30-2020, 03:11 PM - 1 Like   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by solitudebound Quote
Do users here really want Pentax to be destroyed?
That, maybe, is what Pentax should have asked itself.
06-30-2020, 03:18 PM - 1 Like   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by solitudebound Quote
Do users here really want Pentax to be destroyed?
Unfortunately, at any given time we have one or two, maybe three, who would.

06-30-2020, 03:29 PM - 2 Likes   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Unfortunately, at any given time we have one or two, maybe three, who would.
I've heard the craziest ideas, from people claiming to "love" Pentax, and to wish to "push them forward". Like, that everyone should be fired, that Pentax should be sold to the Chinese, and that we should do everything in our power to drive people away to other brands. I've seen, on this forum, people feeling personally insulted by Ricoh Imaging/Pentax not communicating in a specific way; a defect must be worse.

It's so easy to fall into an "us vs. them" trap... I rather think my relation with Pentax as mutually beneficial rather than adversary: they make the products I like, and I pay them money.
I hope I'm not the only one.
06-30-2020, 03:39 PM - 1 Like   #85
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^ Oh, you're definitely the only one of your kind! Hopefully...
06-30-2020, 05:52 PM - 2 Likes   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
If the planned obsolescence leads to a dangerous breakdown of the product, the company should absorb liability for any resulting damages."
The key words here are "dangerous" and "safety" in the context of product liability. None of these terms applies to product failure per se. As for designing a product to a specific lifetime...duh! Many automobile makes are constructed to provide a reasonable service life with minimal expense for repair. For many, that life ends somewhere around 200,000 miles of frequent use or somewhat sooner if the car is driven less and age-related failures take their toll.


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06-30-2020, 06:31 PM   #87
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Theres an unfortunate pattern emerging when manufacturers change country of origin for there parts to China

Greed , greed , greed

Manufacturers have brought it on themselves

The lawsuit well from the outside only in America


Dave
06-30-2020, 07:11 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by swanlefitte Quote
What was an expected lifespan for a dslr back in 2013?
Found this for IPcameras in 2015.
IP Camera Failure Rates 2015

14% <4 years
65% 4-6 years

Can canon be sued for its 50,000 shutter rating?

If i make a product that fails 90% of the time in 1 year because of 10 different problems am i ok.
If i make a product that fails 20% in 1 year from a specific problem am i cupable?

Are any of these defined in any reasonable sense? If they aren't can i make reasonable sense of the lawsuit?
That is an interesting point. Film cameras used to have a lifespan of potentially decades, while modern DSLRs are effectively mini-computers in camera form, with a much shorter lifespan in general, notwithstanding the fact that plenty last 10 years or more. Maybe people's expectations are different in this area because of the lifespan of film cameras. I suspect that younger generations (at least younger than me!) don't expect cameras too last that long. Sad to say but it seems like electronic consumer goods have almost become disposable products. Look at the typical life span of cell phones.....

Last edited by Theov39; 07-03-2020 at 02:39 AM.
07-01-2020, 01:11 AM - 1 Like   #89
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I love pentax but entry level dslr have not a great lifespan, though they are not cheap.
My old k-x was not affected by any crazy mirror or solenoid problem, it just refused to turn on one day. When I asked a quotation for repair, the only option they had was an electronic card change for 250+ euros in the hope it would fix the problem on a 7yo - 23000 clicks body. That is when I decided to use a 2nd hand K5 ii instead.
Manufacturing in China is a cancer for many reasons, I hope corporations eventually understand it...
07-01-2020, 02:09 AM - 2 Likes   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by fsge Quote
I love pentax but entry level dslr have not a great lifespan, though they are not cheap.
My old k-x was not affected by any crazy mirror or solenoid problem, it just refused to turn on one day. When I asked a quotation for repair, the only option they had was an electronic card change for 250+ euros in the hope it would fix the problem on a 7yo - 23000 clicks body. That is when I decided to use a 2nd hand K5 ii instead.
Manufacturing in China is a cancer for many reasons, I hope corporations eventually understand it...
Most corps don't give a damn. You still bought the Kx didn't you (not China I know but the priciple is applicable) ? And your K5II was still manufactured in such area wasn't it? That's enough so most corp won't move.
Not that I agree with such reasoning.

Let's take another example. Vertuous, really vertuous. Fair Phone (Android, sold in EU only AFAICT). It really is a thing well done (can always be better though). Easily repairable. No blood minerals etc.
Even this one has mostly chinese components. It costs hell for a "dated" phone.
That's the price to pay (and it is still mostly chinese).
Each one will judge if all this is important or not. Just providing food for thoughts.

We as buyers can make choices. But the cost of making really vertuous choices is high. Very high (IMO).
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